What Religion??

[mantis]

speaking of religions
dont you guys think secularism became a religion
i feel that its followers are becoming very extreme tho...
maybe i shouldnt be saying this, coz we're not supposed to initiate debates here!
just something i had to say

 

[heretic888]

Have any of you put a real effort into learning what Anton LaVeys philosophy is all about?

Yes.

If so, what do you like/dislike about it.

Outside of his criticism of evangelical religion, I dislike pretty much everything expounded in the Church of Satan.

The use of Jungian psychology is extremely shallow and unprofessional, the emphasis on egocentrism and self-importance is regressive and narcissistic, the use of "black magic" promotes manipulation of other human beings, there is a lack of any sense of development or ultimate purpose beyond the fulfillment of temporary desires, and the entire image itself is absolutely hokey.

When it comes to pure philosophy, you're much better off going with some of the well-established giants in the field: Kant, Fichte, Hegel, Nietzche, Foucault, Derrida, Wittgenstein, Habermas, and so on. What LaVey propounded is just juvenile.

Laterz.

 

[heretic888]

speaking of religions
dont you guys think secularism became a religion
i feel that its followers are becoming very extreme tho...
maybe i shouldnt be saying this, coz we're not supposed to initiate debates here!
just something i had to say

Honestly, it depends on how you define "religion".

There is a concerted effort on the parts of both traditional religious authorities and secular humanists to define religion on the basis of its content, not its actual substance. In this way, an illusory dichotomy between the two groups is maintained to highlight their sense of individuality.

When you start analyzing them on the basis of substance, then it becomes glaringly obvious an extremely similar pattern is emerging.

Laterz.

 

[DeLamar.J]

Yes.



Outside of his criticism of evangelical religion, I dislike pretty much everything expounded in the Church of Satan.

The use of Jungian psychology is extremely shallow and unprofessional, the emphasis on egocentrism and self-importance is regressive and narcissistic, the use of "black magic" promotes manipulation of other human beings, there is a lack of any sense of development or ultimate purpose beyond the fulfillment of temporary desires, and the entire image itself is absolutely hokey.

When it comes to pure philosophy, you're much better off going with some of the well-established giants in the field: Kant, Fichte, Hegel, Nietzche, Foucault, Derrida, Wittgenstein, Habermas, and so on. What LaVey propounded is just juvenile.

Laterz.

Thank you for giving your honest opinion, I dont agree with it, but I respect it.

 

[Kane]

The best way to sum up my system is, I believe there is something out there that we don't understand. A unifying and underlining force which we are all part of. It takes many forms, has many faces, and many paths for us to explore. I don't believe any 1 path is more right than any other, just more right for the individual. I believe in balance, so karma is real, and reincarnation may be possible. I believe this universal force is accessible to those who work to hear it, and is the base root for what we call "ki/chi". I believe all people are created equal, but become unequal through action, inaction and choices.

I agree with you but how do you think we can reach God? I say through Rajah Yoga (Meditation) and learning science. Nature is a part of God and maybe the only part of God we can truly know. We might be able to understand the God beyond through special mind exercises such as meditation but that is it. Everything else is more based in blind faith........well that is if someone is to believe their way is the only way. But of course truly knowing God is impossible, as we would have to be God to do so. Karma seems to be a notion accepted by most modern freethinkers, which isn't surprising .

By the way when you study Hinduism, be sure to not become too attached to the mythology for long . The myths are fun but there is a philosophical system that as more beautiful than all explanations for the origins of our world. The philosophical side of Hinduism is often not seen by many people .

 

[heretic888]

But of course truly knowing God is impossible, as we would have to be God to do so.

The fundamental tragedy of samsara: we assume a duality exists in the first place.

By the way when you study Hinduism, be sure to not become too attached to the mythology for long . The myths are fun but there is a philosophical system that as more beautiful than all explanations for the origins of our world. The philosophical side of Hinduism is often not seen by many people .

The term you're looking for is Vedanta.

Laterz.

 

[jujutsu_indonesia]

jujutsu_indonesia, As sala'amu alaikum. I find the uneducated generalization of Islam as anything other than peaceful to be disgusting at the least. The men mentioned above (IMO) are not true Muslims. I am sorry you felt you had to differentiate yourself from them. Anyone who would have lumped you together with the bin Laden's of the world is simply a fool. Peace to you!

Respects,

Frank

Wa alaykum salaam Frank. Thank you for your kind words about Islam. I believe that right now Allah is testing us, the Muslims. He wants to test our patience and our ability to show non-believers that being a Muslim means being a peaceful person.

All this talk about Islam hates the West mostly came from Muslim persons who uses the Islam religion as political tools to gain power. Us peaceful Muslims does not get much media exposure so we understand why westerners often regards Islam as a religion of hatred.

If you have time, please visit http://islamlib.com and you will see that many Muslims actually share my views.

Thank you again for the nice words. wa salaamu alaykum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh

it means: may Peace be upon you, may Allah gave you rahmah (Allah's love) and barakah (blessings).

 

[Darksoul]

-Been awhile since I've read up on responses here, at least to this thread. Forgot I even posted. Have to say I haven't really changed much spiritually, or at least in regards to "religion" since that post. I guess to me, religion was always the practice of faith, not the actual faith. Hard to put into words. Two quick comments.

1. After going to a goth club for over 7 years, I've only met one satanist. And she's a rather nice person. Just wanted to point out another common stereotype. Black is just such a comfortable color to wear. Love it!!! Which leads me to the next.

2. True Islam is something we hear about rarely, especially with the war and terrorism. It never made any sense that a "faith" group (as opposed to religious) would believe in something silly like kill an American, get into Heaven. And thats not the case at all. Yeah, people, ie extremists/fundamentalists take something good and carry it too far in the wrong direction. Always promising they know whats best for you.

-I haven't had a chance to read up on any of the paths lately, too much going on in life. Too busy trying to slow it down, haha! Been have been doing a lot thinking. I do believe that a person should be physically fit, to support a calm and clear mind, to support spiritual growth. Its all connected to me. But, once again, what path? Do I need a path?

-Some paths seem geared to one goal, say going to the light, or the sun, if you want to get space-agey. Other paths seem content to stay here on planet Earth. And she is a beautiful planet; can't believe we trash her so much. But none of those paths ever appealed to me, especially as of late. I think there is a group of free spirited people out there who come from somewhere else. It doesn't feel like home here, at least not to me. Perhaps home is among the stars. I'll keep looking.

-But while I'm spending time here, I shall accept those who believe in the things I do, and those that do not. I shall protect those who are in need, and defend against those who disturb the peace. To a lot of people out there, I just want to scream at them that life is more than an image. Be more than an image. There is something more out there, even if we don't know what it is.

A---)

 

[jujutsu_indonesia]

That's very true Mr. Darksoul. Those extremists are interpreting our Muslim Holy Book with bad intentions, thus producing very evil interpretation. Nowhere does in the Quran you will find any command to kill Americans. The Quran says that we should all be doing good and Allah himself will be our judge. No matter who we are, whether we are Muslim, Jew, Christian or Sabians or any other religions, if we do good deeds Allah will not make us sad. If you have a Yusuf Ali edition of Quran commentaries, please have a look at chapter 2:62 of the Quran. Bin Laden will never quote those, I am sure!

 

[rziriak]

I'm a one God, Apostolic, tongue talkin, born again, Jesus name baptized child of God.

 

[mantis]

That's very true Mr. Darksoul. Those extremists are interpreting our Muslim Holy Book with bad intentions, thus producing very evil interpretation. Nowhere does in the Quran you will find any command to kill Americans. The Quran says that we should all be doing good and Allah himself will be our judge. No matter who we are, whether we are Muslim, Jew, Christian or Sabians or any other religions, if we do good deeds Allah will not make us sad. If you have a Yusuf Ali edition of Quran commentaries, please have a look at chapter 2:62 of the Quran. Bin Laden will never quote those, I am sure!

oh come on
muslims should stop denying the verses that talk about war, attack, and self-defense
if you change your mentality and defend or explain why those verses are there instead of denying their existence i think it would be a lot better!
also, youre saying "No matter who we are, whether we are Muslim, Jew, Christian or Sabians or any other religions, if we do good deeds Allah will not make us sad" that totally doesnt make sense. if this were true, why is there islam, and why's there hell and heaven?!!
this verse that you're quotin i have read before, and it DOES set a condition for this. the condition is believing in the ONE God, and not associating people/idols with Him, right?!
sad when i realize i know about islam more than muslims!

 

[heretic888]

I would suggest looking into Sufism, mantis.

Laterz.

 

[mantis]

I would suggest looking into Sufism, mantis.

Laterz.

i am not talking about sufism
im talking about sunnie(sp!?) muslims which make the majority of muslims around the world.

 

[heretic888]

i am not talking about sufism
im talking about sunnie(sp!?) muslims which make the majority of muslims around the world.

So, an Appeal To Common Practice, then??

 

[mantis]

So, an Appeal To Common Practice, then??

is that a question?
i dont get it
sorry

 

[heretic888]

is that a question?
i dont get it
sorry

It's a logical fallacy whereby one assumes that a proposition is true solely because it is popular or commonly practiced.

Laterz.

 

[mantis]

It's a logical fallacy whereby one assumes that a proposition is true solely because it is popular or commonly practiced.

Laterz.

oh so ur saying just coz sunni islam is the common one that doesnt make it the right thing?
im not saying it is, what i am saying sunni islam is islam, sufism is not islam. sufism is sufism. simple!
i wanted to discuss islam, not sufism. coz it seems that people when they attack islam they are attacking sunni islam, the common islam and they're not attacking sufism. i have no interest in sufism whatsoever by the way!

 

[heretic888]

oh so ur saying just coz sunni islam is the common one that doesnt make it the right thing?
im not saying it is, what i am saying sunni islam is islam, sufism is not islam. sufism is sufism. simple!
i wanted to discuss islam, not sufism. coz it seems that people when they attack islam they are attacking sunni islam, the common islam and they're not attacking sufism. i have no interest in sufism whatsoever by the way!

The very fact that you are claiming Sufism is not Islam demonstrates you don't know what you're talking about. I would suggest looking into the influence that many notable Sufi mystics, such as Rumi, al Hallaj, and Ibn 'al Arabi have had on the history of Islam. Your Strawman Argument just doesn't hold out.

And, yes, arguing that because a given form of Islam is the most commonly practiced that it is the "real" or "true" Islam is indeed a fallacious Appeal To Common Practice.

Laterz.

 

[mantis]

The very fact that you are claiming Sufism is not Islam demonstrates you don't know what you're talking about. I would suggest looking into the influence that many notable Sufi mystics, such as Rumi, al Hallaj, and Ibn 'al Arabi have had on the history of Islam. Your Strawman Argument just doesn't hold out.

And, yes, arguing that because a given form of Islam is the most commonly practiced that it is the "real" or "true" Islam is indeed a fallacious Appeal To Common Practice.

Laterz.

actually i dont understand
let us see then. what defines islam?
let's go from there to prove to you that sufism is OUT of islam!
AND sufism is more a philosophy than a religion whereas islam is a "way of life" based on a certain belief
btw, islam is what the prophet Muhammad brought including the Quran and the "Sunnah" and he strictly instructed that any changes made after are OUT of islam. so what i want to ask about is the REAL Islam Muhammad brought to the human race. Not additions brought by people who abused people's ignorance (read more on the history of Ibn Arabi)
btw, i visited Ibn Arabi's shrine in the city of damascus, syria about 10 years ago, and I have seen how the practices he's left are not validated against the Islamic rules and what's known as "sharia".
again, i do not have any interest in discussion sufism, i've read enough about it. what i want is talking to the sunni muslims about the issues mentioned before
if you want please go ahead and start a new thread about sufism vs. islam or something like that.
thanks and good talking (kinda) to you!

 

[jujutsu_indonesia]

oh come on
muslims should stop denying the verses that talk about war, attack, and self-defense
if you change your mentality and defend or explain why those verses are there instead of denying their existence i think it would be a lot better!

We are not denying that those verses existed. Those were revealed by Allah when Muhammad were facing the idolaters from his own home town of Makkah, and they waged war against him. So he had to defend himself. At least, that's what I know. I wasn't there personally, so I just have to rely on the History of the Prophet, written by Ibn Ishaq.

also, youre saying "No matter who we are, whether we are Muslim, Jew, Christian or Sabians or any other religions, if we do good deeds Allah will not make us sad" that totally doesnt make sense. if this were true, why is there islam, and why's there hell and heaven?!!
this verse that you're quotin i have read before, and it DOES set a condition for this. the condition is believing in the ONE God, and not associating people/idols with Him, right?!

Well, according to Prof. Nurcholish Madjid, the condition is simply to not wage wars against Muslims.

verse 2:256 said that there are no compulsion in religion, so as long as non-Muslims doesn't wage wars against Muslims, then Muslims should not wage wars against them.

Off course, opinions may vary. I am from the liberal Muslims camp, www.islamlib.com

People like Ahmadinejad and Bin Laden have very different interpretations though, and their interpretations is more "Famous" than us, unfortunately.

That's why I said in my previous posting, that I perfectly understand if westerners regards Islam as a religion of war and hate. That's because so many Muslims committed actions which shows so much hatred and so much emphasis in war. I don't condone the actions of those so-called Muslims, and that's why people from the liberal Muslims camp are not welcome in certain Muslim circles