What makes a "Master"?

[Gemini]

Stumbled across an old thread posted by Bob many, many years ago. It was great reading, but I realized almost all (except for Bob) have since faded into the sunset. With all the new new members since then, I thought it would be interesting to get a new perspective on an old topic.

What truely makes a martial arts master?

Is it that mystical zen qualities that allows you to recite ancient tales while catching flies with chopsticks?

Is it the ability to defeat all foes, regardless of the situation?

A dozen black belts in a dozen different arts?

Hundreds of students?

A string of schools?

Do you have to be a 90 yr old wizened yoda like guru?

Or, be able to break oak boards or pull a train with your john-thomas?

Or dodge bullets?

Or have a tv infomercial?

Seriously, what makes a true master?

 

[stickarts]

It would make for a long post if i added everything, but for now, I think the ability to lead others (many different types of people) to advanced levels of understanding and also being able to apply the lessons learned from your training into other aspects of your life are two important qualities of a Master.
I hope this gets the ball rolling and i look forward to other posts!!!

 

[Gemini]

Though I agree it isn't all encompassing, you've already said something that I've found all too scarce when people talk about such things.

(many different types of people)

To make different people with different physical and mental characteristics be able to get to the same place is HUGE and I think often overlooked. I have students that I'm able to show something to but others that I'm not able to get them to understand or follow. I believe that's my shortcoming, not theirs and until I can do that, I'll could never in all clear conscience consider myself a master.

 

[kickcatcher]

I've come to believe that terms like "master" and "sensei" and "sifu" are just empty terms which portray some form of hierarchy within a club/org and in themselves are unrelated to skill level. Therefore being a "true" master or a not-so-true master is inconsequential.

 

[MartialIntent]

Since a master by definition is "an artist or performer of consummate and exemplary skill", I think the implication is that the process of acquiring this skill and the time taken to become a master is lengthy and therefore the master will indeed be that wizened [or certainly aged] old man. Stereotypical maybe, but this for me is the architypal "old skool" or traditional master.

I say a true master will also be a true artist in that he is creative within his art: he molds the art, he challenges the students and doesn't merely trail existing protocols. Furthermore, the master should be given privelege to do so within the art as the assumption is that he will have reached a personal level where taking the art in new directions will be for the betterment of the art and not for ego elevation.

Unfortunately I believe there's also a wealth of "new wave" masters who are all too speedily elevated to positions not on merit and time served but through either their networking prowess or simply by breaking away from their art's official body and forming their own little empire. Personally I tire easily of this new breed of younger "masters" with much to say though little worth hearing.

Yay for old skool masters! Good thread - you have done well Grasshopper...

Funny though, one never immediately pictures a female master. I wonder why not?

Respects!

 

[terryl965]

Gemini in your statement you could never cosider yourself a Master until you can make everybody reach the same level.

Well that right there makes you a Master of your Art, you are not satisfied within yourself.

To me a True Master is one that is Humble enough to step a side to let other try and learn from there mistake and able to come back in at the right time to make the correction they need, They also need to be completely understanding of there particular Art they have choosen and the ability too adapt from time to time as needed.

Terry

 

[terryl965]

I've come to believe that terms like "master" and "sensei" and "sifu" are just empty terms which portray some form of hierarchy within a club/org and in themselves are unrelated to skill level. Therefore being a "true" master or a not-so-true master is inconsequential.

Kickcatcher there are people who have devoted a lifetime of training into there Art and has earned the right to be called Master or Sensie or Sifu.
Just my opinion.
Terry

 

[Flying Crane]

Funny though, one never immediately pictures a female master. I wonder why not?
Respects!

Grandmaster Lily Lau of Eagle Claw Kung Fu is in the San Francisco Bay area, and is the head of the style.

My Capoeira teacher in San Francisco, Mestranda Marcia Cigarra is a senior level capoeira teacher with group ABADA based in Rio de Janeiro under Mestre Camisa. She is top notch, extremely talented and dedicated to the art and to teaching, and ranked one level below Mestre.

They are definitely fewer, but they are out there.

 

[Gemini]

I've come to believe that terms like "master" and "sensei" and "sifu" are just empty terms which portray some form of hierarchy within a club/org and in themselves are unrelated to skill level. Therefore being a "true" master or a not-so-true master is inconsequential.

Though I feel it's a shame, I could only say I understand how someone can get to that point. Though there are those that make a claim that they're not entitled to (by any stretch of the imagination), do your really feel there are none that have truly earned the title? Or do I misunderstand you? To bring it back to point, what would it take for you to acknowledge someone as a master?

 

[kickcatcher]

Kickcatcher there are people who have devoted a lifetime of training into there Art and has earned the right to be called Master or Sensie or Sifu.
Just my opinion.
Terry

And they should be given credit for their abilities, either as fighters or instructors - relative to those abilities and irrespective of their title.

 

[kickcatcher]

To bring it back to point, what would it take for you to acknowledge someone as a master?

"Master" as it is commonly used, them calling themselves or being awarded the rank of "master" is enough, but then I put little weight on that rank. Some few styles I have more confidence in their ranking standards than others of course -I've yet to meet a Judo blackbelt who couldn't throw me around like a rag doll - but I admire their skill not their title.

As for someone who has "Mastered" their techniques, I respect that immensly - whether they are called a Master or a Wombat

 

[Gemini]

Unfortunately I believe there's also a wealth of "new wave" masters who are all too speedily elevated to positions not on merit and time served but through either their networking prowess or simply by breaking away from their art's official body and forming their own little empire. Personally I tire easily of this new breed of younger "masters" with much to say though little worth hearing.

Oh so true, which is why I'd rather focus on the positves than the only too obvious "What doesn't make a master" negatives. That road is becoming entirely to traveled.

Funny though, one never immediately pictures a female master. I wonder why not?

Though at one time I would have agreed with that, I've met too many "formidable" women masters to cause me to do the double take it once would have.

 

[Gemini]

As for someone who has "Mastered" their techniques, I respect that immensly - whether they are called a Master or a Wombat

Fair enough. A "Show me, don't tell me" kinda guy. I can certainly respect that.

 

[Gemini]

To me a True Master is one that is Humble enough to step a side to let other try and learn from there mistake and able to come back in at the right time to make the correction they need,

Now that's something my Sabumnim does all the time. He'll let you make mistakes all the time, fail, get frustrated, but will never let you give up or head down the wrong path. He wants you to truly understand "why" is, and feels over-teaching is a bad as under-teaching. No one can do it for you, and understanding can only come from doing, not hearing or seeing.

 

[kickcatcher]

An interesting comment from an instructor who doesn't use the term master or anything like that - everyone just calls him his name. He once said to me '"they {another instructor, no doubt called Sensei, who was giving his club problems over mat sharing} are just scared of getting beaten {in sparring}. I'm not scared, I have nothing to prove." - and I believe him 100%, not even a whiff of fake humanity. That attitude impressed the hell out of me. They are very many heads of large organisations who could learn from that.

 

[stickarts]

I think that a true Master does not take the title upon themself, but is recognized as being such by their instructors, peers, and students.
Also, being able to change your teaching approach with many different kinds of students comes from years of experience and there is not a short cut! Sometimes a student needs to be pushed, while at other times they need to be gently led. The Master doesn't need the title. You know it after you have worked with them.

 

[still learning]

Hello, Just want to share one more thought on "What makes a master of the martial arts?

When you reach a level of your training, where skills come to you without thinking about them. (martial arts is endless void, never ending)

You will find the. "awareness" at very high level, and moves without effort. (there techniques). Most of them are very HUMBLE.

They will also have a "presents" about them.

NOTE: We all know anyone can call themselves anything they want to? But when you meet a TRUE MASTER? ...it is an awesome feeling you get from meeting them. Your instincts will tell you!

My son does High School Judo, one of there Sensi is a 5th Degree Judoka.
But his skills and knowledge is awesome, you can feel his "presents". He makes things look so easy. He is a master of JUDO......Aloha

 

[kickcatcher]

You will find the. "awareness" at very high level, and moves without effort. (there techniques). Most of them are very HUMBLE.

Where we hit a problem is that often the "greatest" martial artists do not exhibit the character traits we would hope. Not all the great masters were humble - Miyamoto Musashi, arguably the greatest of them all, was apparently quite full of himself.

 

[Kacey]

From Merriam-Webster (m-w.com) - irrelevant definitions omitted for this discussion:

c : a worker or artisan qualified to teach apprentices d (1) : an artist, performer, or player of consummate skill (2) : a great figure of the past (as in science or art) whose work serves as a model or ideal

Remember that, in ITF TKD at least (which is the style I practice), the full title is "Master Instructor" - which fits definition c above, as well as c1, and, to a certain extent, c2, but in the present - and attaining that rank (VII Dan) requires 30 years of active participation, at a minimum.

A master instructor would, therefore, need to be someone who has spent considerable time both learning the style thoroughly and learning how to pass that information on to others - I've known some awesome practitioners who could not instruct, and some awesome instructors who were less competent physically (not incompetent, just not awesome). In my opinion, the latter is more qualified to be a master instructor than the former - physicality fades with time for most people, but the understanding required to instruct a wide variety of students, and raise their skills to a high level, improves with experience. Even if your physical abilities fade with age, injury, or illness, a true master would be able to teach something s/he can no longer do, because s/he would understand the underlying principles well enough to teach other students who are still physically capable.

As far as female masters - there are some out there, and certainly more than there used to be - but until relatively recently, martial arts (the combat styles, at least - as opposed to the meditation styles) were primarily the province of men; in addition, I've seen women test while pregnant, and remain in class after having a child - but it's rare, and the time commitments are huge, especially once the child is no longer happy in a playpen. Therefore, women are much more likely to take a hiatus from a martial art when they become mother than men are when they become fathers - slowing their progress in their chosen art, at least for a while. But we're getting there!

 

[SFC JeffJ]

I would say it's somone who's not only "mastered" the art, but who has pushed the envelope of it in all areas. Then they have to be able to break down what they've done so someone like me could understand and apply it.

That, and they'd never refer to themselves by that title.

Just my opinion