What makes a Martial Arts System Practical for Physical Self-Defense?

MetalBoar

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I'm in IT and this is my biggest challenge since taking my current Job. I do a lot of sitting so now I have to dedicate more stretching than previously before. My flexibility has never been as bad as it's been in the last 2 years
I've never been flexible and that was true when I was 23 and waiting tables and walking all night for a living. When I started working in IT in my late 20's it got so much harder.
 

stanly stud

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I'm in IT and this is my biggest challenge since taking my current Job. I do a lot of sitting so now I have to dedicate more stretching than previously before. My flexibility has never been as bad as it's been in the last 2 years
yes i remember a lot of office workers coming in the gym with lower back pains or neck, C6/C7 normally.
some upper back work reverse machine flys & lower back work helped. 45% hypers. so much you can do
 

stanly stud

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good stretch in the hypers & contraction in the upper part. slowly.
the reverse fly are great for upper traps,rear delts. can use a cable /bands.
 

MetalBoar

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5 mins of high intensity work twice a week isn’t enough to make major fitness gains. It will improve longevity and make some fitness gains, but it takes more time for big improvement.
Hey Gerry, I've been on this forum long enough to know that Jobo can be abrasive in his posts and frequently declines to do anything to elaborate or sell others on his ideas, but I agree with his views on fitness far more often than I disagree. I can say from personal experience training myself and a lot of other people that 5 minutes of high intensity work 2x/week is sufficient time to make huge improvements to fitness and tremendous gains in strength, though my primary workouts are more like 7 minutes 1x/week. I don't currently have the experience to feel confident training people at that level of intensity without more equipment than the usual martial arts studio has space for but I have no doubt that others can do it.

I think there are (at least) 2 primary roadblocks to clear communication around this topic:
  1. Our definitions of "fitness". I don't know what you consider fit, but a lot of people who actually work out (not to imply that you don't!) seem to really focus on endurance, how long one can continue with physical exertion, as their primary metric and then maybe body composition as a secondary metric and frequently impact on health as a tertiary measurement - strength may or may not even be on the list. I've got 2 main metrics, 1) How do your structural and metabolic adaptations enable or inhibit your ability to perform your desired activities? 2) How do your structural and metabolic adaptations improve or degrade your health? So, if an exercise program supports these 2 requirements well then I would deem it to be an effective fitness routine.

    For example, I have no interest in running a 10k or anything longer so I don't train for that and wouldn't be very good at it if I had to go run one right now. If someone else is really invested in distance running they may think I'm terribly unfit and more relevant to this conversation, would be correct (by their definition) in stating that there is no way I could be fit without putting in at least a couple of hours a week spent on running. If their definition of fit was being able to go all out fighting for their life for 30-180 seconds without getting winded until after the conflict was resolved (the definition that more closely matches this thread) then 5 minutes 2x/week of true high intensity work is going to be both more efficient and vastly superior to running for a few hours several days a week.

  2. Our definitions of high intensity. A lot of people think high intensity, they think really working up a sweat, or maybe doing reps until they're really feeling an intense burn. I mean working as hard as you can without rest until you physically can't do anything but carefully walk afterwards. If you have the skill and the grit to do this it won't take more than 10 minutes and if you focus on nothing but big, compound movements it won't take more than 5. Some people will say, "Oh, I can work that hard for 30 minutes". No, they are holding back a lot, or they're taking big breaks, if they can do it for 30 minutes. As just 2 examples, I've had both a professional cyclist in his 20's and a newly promoted BJJ black belt need to lie down on the floor and try not to vomit after a 7 minute (total, start to finish) workout. That level of work produces a tremendous adaptive response and isn't maintainable at a frequency of much more than 1x/per week for a lot of people, 2x is definitely plenty.
So, I'm not saying that you're wrong, but I'm also not willing to concede that you are right. I'm saying that we may have different fitness goals and that you may not understand what kind of training I'm (and I think Jobo) are advocating.

Cheers!

Michael

EDIT to add: Relevant to this thread: I only offer private 1-on-1 instruction and I can't imagine training a group all at the same time to this level of intensity, so it could be a tough add for a full martial arts class.
 
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Monkey Turned Wolf

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Hey Gerry, I've been on this forum long enough to know that Jobo can be abrasive in his posts and frequently declines to do anything to elaborate or sell others on his ideas, but I agree with his views on fitness far more often than I disagree. I can say from personal experience training myself and a lot of other people that 5 minutes of high intensity work 2x/week is sufficient time to make huge improvements to fitness and tremendous gains in strength, though my primary workouts are more like 7 minutes 1x/week. I don't currently have the experience to feel confident training people at that level of intensity without more equipment than the usual martial arts studio has space for but I have no doubt that others can do it.

I think there are (at least) 2 primary roadblocks to clear communication around this topic:
  1. Our definitions of "fitness". I don't know what you consider fit, but a lot of people who actually work out (not to imply that you don't!) seem to really focus on endurance, how long one can continue with physical exertion, as their primary metric and then maybe body composition as a secondary metric and frequently impact on health as a tertiary measurement - strength may or may not even be on the list. I've got 2 main metrics, 1) How do your structural and metabolic adaptations enable or inhibit your ability to perform your desired activities? 2) How do your structural and metabolic adaptations improve or degrade your health? So, if an exercise program supports these 2 requirements well then I would deem it to be an effective fitness routine.

    For example, I have no interest in running a 10k or anything longer so I don't train for that and wouldn't be very good at it if I had to go run one right now. If someone else is really invested in distance running they may think I'm terribly unfit and more relevant to this conversation, would be correct (by their definition) in stating that there is no way I could be fit without putting in at least a couple of hours a week spent on running. If their definition of fit was being able to go all out fighting for their life for 30-180 seconds without getting winded until after the conflict was resolved (the definition that more closely matches this thread) then 5 minutes 2x/week of true high intensity work is going to be both more efficient and vastly superior to running for a few hours several days a week.

  2. Our definitions of high intensity. A lot of people think high intensity, they think really working up a sweat, or maybe doing reps until they're really feeling an intense burn. I mean working as hard as you can without rest until you physically can't do anything but carefully walk afterwards. If you have the skill and the grit to do this it won't take more than 10 minutes and if you focus on nothing but big, compound movements it won't take more than 5. Some people will say, "Oh, I can work that hard for 30 minutes". No, they are holding back a lot, or they're taking big breaks, if they can do it for 30 minutes. As just 2 examples, I've had both a professional cyclist in his 20's and a newly promoted BJJ black belt need to lie down on the floor and try not to vomit after a 7 minute (total, start to finish) workout. That level of work produces a tremendous adaptive response and isn't maintainable at a frequency of much more than 1x/per week for a lot of people, 2x is definitely plenty.
So, I'm not saying that you're wrong, but I'm also not willing to concede that you are right. I'm saying that we may have different fitness goals and that you may not understand what kind of training I'm (and I think Jobo) are advocating.

Cheers!

Michael
Can you provide a video of this type of workout? I'd be curious to try a bodyweight version of it, since I typically need to feel something to actually understand it.
 

MetalBoar

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Can you provide a video of this type of workout? I'd be curious to try a bodyweight version of it, since I typically need to feel something to actually understand it.
I just moved cross country and most all of my stuff (computer with videos and all my gym equipment) is in a trailer over a 1000 miles away right now. I'll look around on line and see if I can find anyone else who's put up something good. If you don't hear back from me on this in ~ 3-4 weeks feel free to hassle me again and I should have my gym set up and I'll record something for you.

I personally find it hard to work this hard with body weight or free weights (without a really good spotter) so you may have some challenges reproducing the exact results but you should get an idea of what I'm talking about. It also takes some practice to be able to work this hard with good form. I would say that someone who's fairly gifted at physical activity (but no kind of prodigy) takes ~ 8-10 sessions to really get the basics down and then you'll still see significant improvements in their form and grit over the course of their first year training. 20 years after I started training this way I still find new ways to squeeze a little bit more out of each set.
 

Monkey Turned Wolf

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I just moved cross country and most all of my stuff (computer with videos and all my gym equipment) is in a trailer over a 1000 miles away right now. I'll look around on line and see if I can find anyone else who's put up something good. If you don't hear back from me on this in ~ 3-4 weeks feel free to hassle me again and I should have my gym set up and I'll record something for you.

I personally find it hard to work this hard with body weight or free weights (without a really good spotter) so you may have some challenges reproducing the exact results but you should get an idea of what I'm talking about. It also takes some practice to be able to work this hard with good form. I would say that someone who's fairly gifted at physical activity (but no kind of prodigy) takes ~ 8-10 sessions to really get the basics down and then you'll still see significant improvements in their form and grit over the course of their first year training. 20 years after I started training this way I still find new ways to squeeze a little bit more out of each set.
Hopefully I'll remember. While I've only got access to bodyweight/freeweight stuff at my house (great spotter though), I'd definitely be interested in seeing how this idea works. Also curious if there's a higher injury rate as people get 'run down', or if that's offset by the amount of rest that occurs.
 

jobo

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Can you provide a video of this type of workout? I'd be curious to try a bodyweight version of it, since I typically need to feel something to actually understand it.
i posted one such for gerry, a page back, its one of three that i do in a week, that between them hit the whole body,

there are clearly variations you may want to mix up several compoubds in one session that foxuses an arm push strengh

it called sore in 6 ( mins) i can testify my muscles scream for an hour afterwards
 

Steve

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another point is i have nothing against older People what ever their Goals / sexuel Orientation. This Guy is 60 & trains hard with weights & Cycles 100s of miles.
he still trains legs & upper body. OK a short range Leg extension; Trap Bar deadlifts; stiff legged Deadlifts . He is fit & has not bad legs. He´s also a Gay man. His videos are good. Movement is still King !!
Trying to figure out how being gay helps or hinders his fitness efforts. Did I miss something? Just trying to keep up with the thread and I don't get this statement at all.
 

Steve

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That's what I do at work. But I don't have one for home yet. It's on my to do list.

Edit. I work from home now.
Ikea has a sturdy mechanical crank standing desk. It's pretty cheap and sturdy. My wife needed something fancier because she sits and stands back and forth all day long. I just leave mine standing all day, so this one suits my needs very well.

SKARSTA Desk sit/stand, white, 47 1/4x27 1/2" - IKEA

I got the bigger one and it has plenty of surface area for my needs.
 

Monkey Turned Wolf

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i posted one such for gerry, a page back, its one of three that i do in a week, that between them hit the whole body,

there are clearly variations you may want to mix up several compoubds in one session that foxuses an arm push strengh

it called sore in 6 ( mins) i can testify my muscles scream for an hour afterwards
Cool. I'll give it a look/try tonight when I get home.
 

Steve

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On the topic, if by "physical self defense" you mean fighting, I think @drop bear nailed it, though how to achieve that is the big question.

If by "physical self defense" you mean being physically safer tomorrow than you are today, that becomes much more complex. and will be somewhat unique to your circumstances. A cop being more safe is different than an IT specialist being more safe. Someone who goes out and attends protests has different needs than a college coed (though both are statistically at high risk for being assaulted). A white collar lawyer will have different needs than a social worker. I read an account of an ER nurse who was bitten by a covid-19 denier convinced that she was lying to him about why he was sick. I don't think I'm likely to experience this.

And when we add the new level of crazy that is the Proud Boys or one of these other groups of well armed traitors, what does physical self defense look like there?
 
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JowGaWolf

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Jobo can be abrasive
First thing that came to mind. lol Understatement.. I prefer a serious Jobo. I don't like the Pot Stirrer Jobo.



Ikea has a sturdy mechanical crank standing desk. It's pretty cheap and sturdy. My wife needed something fancier because she sits and stands back and forth all day long. I just leave mine standing all day, so this one suits my needs very well.

SKARSTA Desk sit/stand, white, 47 1/4x27 1/2" - IKEA

I got the bigger one and it has plenty of surface area for my needs.
Thanks.. That looks good for the kneeling chair that I have and it's not big compared to some of the other stuff out there. Simple and practical that's what I need.
 
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JowGaWolf

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On the topic, if by "physical self defense" you mean fighting
yes physically having to lay hands on someone to ensure your safety. It doesn't have to be fighting as there are escapes that can be done that don't require punching someone back. It could be as simple as breaking a grip or parrying a hind that is trying grab your arm. For example, if you see that someone is trying to grab your arm you can parry the incoming arm so that they are not able to grab.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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if you see that someone is trying to grab your arm you can parry the incoming arm so that they are not able to grab.
This is why you can use

1. Double circles grabbing - You grab your opponent's wrist, his arm rotate away. You rotate your arm the same way as he does, and grab his wrist on the 2nd rotation.
2. Reverse circle grabbing - You grab your opponent's wrist, his arm rotate away. You rotate your arm into the reverse direction, and meet his arm half way.

This is why the MA training is so interested. You try to grab my arm. I rotate my arm away. You follow my rotation, and grab my arm while my arm is still rotating. My arm rotation is completely as you predict.
 
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stanly stud

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i posted one such for gerry, a page back, its one of three that i do in a week, that between them hit the whole body,
Can you post up you doing this workout so we can see the results of this Amazing training?
As they say the proof of the Pudding is in the eating
 

jobo

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Can you post up you doing this workout so we can see the results of this Amazing training?
As they say the proof of the Pudding is in the eating
no, you already appear to be stalking me, im not encouraging you to take it further
 

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