What makes a Martial Arts System Practical for Physical Self-Defense?

[drop bear]

The question was not concerning the individual's strength of will or how much he works out. I agree that these are important things, as I posted, but the question centers on the SYSTEM. A tough, fast, aggressive, strong guy, but untrained, with a club may be able to force his will upon another, but would you call his method a system?

forcing my will on someone means I can make someone do what I want regardless of their wishes. So if I want to escape and he wants to hold me. Then he is given no choice.

 

[jobo]

Yeah, which is why I didn't say that.

you asked if it was the,systems responcibility to deliver fitness and that this woulnt leave enouhh time for tecnque, plainly thats you priortising one over the other

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

What makes a Martial Arts System Practical for Physical Self-Defense?

Which MA system will you train?

When someone tries to rape your wife, your

1. 1st MA system teacher tells you that you need to de-escalate, and run away.
2. 2nd MA system teacher tells you that you need to beat up that guy so his own mother won't be able to recognize him.

I'll choice 2 over 1.

 

[isshinryuronin]

if what your selling is a practical sd system, that need to be included, or least declared up front, that its actual practical application is heavily dependent on the student working out elsewhere

Exactly my point - Fitness is "heavily dependent on the student," not the system.

there arnt many sd situations where an ability to do three hundred kicks will be an important factor

You're being obtuse here. Obviously you will not be attacked by 300 guys (unless you're in a Kill Bill or kung fu movie,) or kick one guy 300 times. But doing 300 kicks per workout will help allow you to kick one guy, one time, and land it with power. Anyway, the topic of discussion was regarding physical fitness, not application. Please re-read the posts for context.

 

[jobo]

Exactly my point - Fitness is "heavily dependent on the student," not the system.



You're being obtuse here. Obviously you will not be attacked by 300 guys (unless you're in a Kill Bill or kung fu movie,) or kick one guy 300 times. But doing 300 kicks per workout will help allow you to kick one guy, one time, and land it with power. Anyway, the topic of discussion was regarding physical fitness, not application. Please re-read the posts for context.

well no that wasnt my point, the system is varius stages of useless with out strong fitness component , that means the system will most likely fail, that is then an inherant flaw in the system, i cant think of any sport that doesnt take fitness trainibg serious, yet somethibg that may actualy be life and death, youve shrugged shoulders not my problem guv

if you were coaching a basket ball team would you say, no, dont wory about fitness, that wont help you win? no thought not

 

[jobo]

Exactly my point - Fitness is "heavily dependent on the student," not the system.



You're being obtuse here. Obviously you will not be attacked by 300 guys (unless you're in a Kill Bill or kung fu movie,) or kick one guy 300 times. But doing 300 kicks per workout will help allow you to kick one guy, one time, and land it with power. Anyway, the topic of discussion was regarding physical fitness, not application. Please re-read the posts for context.

well generslly no it wont, 300 kicks will teach you to kick 300 times, it will have little effect on how hard you kick once

 

[jobo]

Is it the system's responsibility to build fitness? If someone attends 3 hours a week (pretty common, perhaps even on the high side), they're not going to build comprehensive fitness AND fighting skills in that time.

there also the ussue, that fitness trainibg doesnt have to take a long time to be effective, if its better or worse than a longer time is up for debate, but its a lot better than skipping it entirly.

from an sd point if veiw, a capability to deliver,5 minetes of maximal effort will be very useful, that actually only takes 5 minets of training time to achieve, you just do more and more in the 5 mins till your at peak fitness

 

[JowGaWolf]

What makes a Martial Arts System Practical for Physical Self-Defense?

Which MA system will you train?

When someone tries to rape your wife, your

1. 1st MA system teacher tells you that you need to de-escalate, and run away.
2. 2nd MA system teacher tells you that you need to beat up that guy so his own mother won't be able to recognize him.

I'll choice 2 over 1.

I think this is a question that gets over looked. There's self-defense where I'm the only one in danger and then there's "Self-defense" when there may be a need to come to the aid of a family member or a child. Technically that's not classified as "self-defense." but in the case of family it could be very much self-defense in a broader perspective and the game plan for "self-defense" as a group is not the same as "self-defense" as individual.

I like to often show animals behavior for things like this because it's the most honest view and much of it is similar to what some of us would do. Or what is the best decision.

My personal thoughts is that Running away is good in some scenarios, but in others splitting from the group can be bad and the worst thing that one can do in terms of self-defense. In general, predators like prey that runs away, I believe humans are the same way. They look for the weaker of the group.

When I teach self-defense I teach for individuals and as a group. Usually I train mother and daughter individual techniques and methods and then I teach them how to operate as a team or a unit, to increase their safety as a group.

 

[jobo]

I think this is a question that gets over looked. There's self-defense where I'm the only one in danger and then there's "Self-defense" when there may be a need to come to the aid of a family member or a child. Technically that's not classified as "self-defense." but in the case of family it could be very much self-defense in a broader perspective and the game plan for "self-defense" as a group is not the same as "self-defense" as individual.

I like to often show animals behavior for things like this because it's the most honest view and much of it is similar to what some of us would do. Or what is the best decision.

My personal thoughts is that Running away is good in some scenarios, but in others splitting from the group can be bad and the worst thing that one can do in terms of self-defense. In general, predators like prey that runs away, I believe humans are the same way. They look for the weaker of the group.

When I teach self-defense I teach for individuals and as a group. Usually I train mother and daughter individual techniques and methods and then I teach them how to operate as a team or a unit, to increase their safety as a group.

preditors generaly like pray that stands still, so they dont have to bother chasing them, that rather why they tend to sneak up on them,

to be clear there are two sorts of preditor in the animal kindom, ambush preditors, that arnt keen on running very far if at all as they quickly consume more energy than they will get from the meal and persistant preditors , whos whole game plan is to run longer than the prey till it calaspse with exhaustion,
early humans were persistant predators, where they would chase a gazelle etal for 5 hours or more, in much the same way that a wolf pack will

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

There's self-defense where I'm the only one in danger and then there's "Self-defense" when there may be a need to come to the aid of a family member or a child.

When people talk about SD, they don't want to talk about to defend for others. This is a very selfish attitude in my opinion.

Without "侠 (Xia) - heroic", MA training is meaningless.

 

[jobo]

When people talk about SD, they don't want to talk about to defend for others. This is a very selfish attitude in my opinion.

Without 侠 (Xia) - heroic, MA training is meaningless.

one very quickly becomes the other if you get in the way, they will attack you, then its sd defence again

 

[MetalBoar]

Being fit, and strong in particular, is really valuable for self defense. If you're selling a complete "system" in the sense of, "Do my program and it's everything you need to do to be prepared to defend yourself", I think you need to include fitness as a component. If you mean "system" as in a martial arts style that provides effective skills for self defense then I don't think it needs to include a fitness component, but it would be irresponsible of an instructor if they didn't either include it or make it very clear that it is a necessary addition.

I also agree with @jobo that if your goal is fitness for self defense putting in 5 minutes of maximum effort work on a regular basis is sufficient to achieve a high level of fitness for that purpose. 3 minutes might even be better. Now that's not ideal if you want to compete in a martial sport that goes 5, 5 minute rounds with a 1 minute rest between, unless your strategy is to win or lose in the first round, but I'd argue it's superior if your sole focus is on surviving an attack. I'd probably also add some resistance training onto that for best results, depending on what you're doing during your 3-5 minute routine, but you'd get a lot of benefit even without anything extra.

 

[dvcochran]

well generslly no it wont, 300 kicks will teach you to kick 300 times, it will have little effect on how hard you kick once

I can't agree with that one Jobo.

 

[MetalBoar]

When people talk about SD, they don't want to talk about to defend for others. This is a very selfish attitude in my opinion.

Without "侠 (Xia) - heroic", MA training is meaningless.

I agree with this. If you only care about saving yourself you can spend your time getting good at sprinting and maybe pick up a very small tool set of standing grappling techniques so that you've got the ability to break loose and run, you aren't really doing martial arts. If you are spending any real time studying martial arts for the purpose of being able to fight off an aggressor you ought to be learning how to apply it to protect others as well.

 

[jobo]

I can't agree with that one Jobo.

id be intrested in you explaing the biology of how you think that would help, i know its a done thing, but it seems like no one has ever asked why?

why dont sprinters run marathons, it must help, mustnt it?

 

[dvcochran]

id be intrested in you explaing the biology of how you think that would help, i know its a done thing, but it seems like no one has ever asked why?

why dont sprinters run marathons, it must help, mustnt it?

Just the simple rule of repetition. That said, good instruction would be paramount for most people (crap in/crap out). But 300 kicks done with regularity, even when done with poor technique should improve conditioning some I would think.

 

[JowGaWolf]

preditors generaly like pray that stands still, so they dont have to bother chasing them, that rather why they tend to sneak up on them,

From what I can tell predators like will often miss things that stand still. In nature that's a natural defensive response for baby animals.

For adults animals the prey that runs is the prey that is weaker than you. The prey that faces you is often the prey that will be the most difficult to take down. Ambush predators don't care if you are still or not. They only thing they care about is about attacking prey when they are least ready which is why they sneak up on them. It's no different than sucker punches and purse snatches where the majority happen when the prey is least ready to defend against it.

Case in point. The lady turns to face the Cheetah "shoos" the cheetah away. Notice the hesitation that such an action caused.

Predators don't care if you are still or not. They mainly care if you are watching and become more hesitant when you are.

You can see the same behavior here as each approach is a sneak up approach.

Almost all predators will stalk you or lure you. Even the ones that run after their prey, they will stalk you first to get a jump on you when you least expected. Those that don't chase will stalk you to death relentlessly. Wolves are like that when they hunt in a pack. If they are unsuccessful the first time then they will continue to stalk the herd for another try.

Human's do the same thing as well. Where stalking cases require restraining orders, and in some cases turn into murder after a long period of stalking. The animal kingdom is an honest representation of predatory behavior. Whatever you find in the animal kingdom you can find it's copy in the human species.

 

[dvcochran]

I think this is a question that gets over looked. There's self-defense where I'm the only one in danger and then there's "Self-defense" when there may be a need to come to the aid of a family member or a child. Technically that's not classified as "self-defense." but in the case of family it could be very much self-defense in a broader perspective and the game plan for "self-defense" as a group is not the same as "self-defense" as individual.

I like to often show animals behavior for things like this because it's the most honest view and much of it is similar to what some of us would do. Or what is the best decision.

My personal thoughts is that Running away is good in some scenarios, but in others splitting from the group can be bad and the worst thing that one can do in terms of self-defense. In general, predators like prey that runs away, I believe humans are the same way. They look for the weaker of the group.

When I teach self-defense I teach for individuals and as a group. Usually I train mother and daughter individual techniques and methods and then I teach them how to operate as a team or a unit, to increase their safety as a group.

Wow. That is some incredible video. Lioness never had a chance against that crowd.

 

[JowGaWolf]

When people talk about SD, they don't want to talk about to defend for others. This is a very selfish attitude in my opinion.

Without "侠 (Xia) - heroic", MA training is meaningless.

Which is crazy because sometimes a person's well being is directly tied to another person's well being. So you would think that reality would take up more time in self-defense classes. The most I've ever heard of was "Safety in Numbers" but never what do do if someone in that group is being targeted or attack.

 

[jobo]

Just the simple rule of repetition. That said, good instruction would be paramount for most people (crap in/crap out). But 300 kicks done with regularity, even when done with poor technique should improve conditioning some I would think.

well obsolutly the conditioning to do 300 kicks, not the conditioning to do one that criples them, why 300 if its so good why not 350, that must ve better