What makes a Martial Arts System Practical for Physical Self-Defense?

[dvcochran]

It seems like there is this idea that if there are gloves and rules the the situation is automatically safe and probably not that bad.

The reality of the situation is different.

If you get trapped in a ring with a guy who doesn't like you and is a much more competent fighter then you can be in serious trouble. And it is a real thing in combat sports.

You can be placed in a situation with rules and with pads where you are at the mercy of the guy attacking you. And there is enough tools in the shed to seriously injure you. Especially if it is in a gym and not a sanctioned fight.

That guy in my last video used to spar serious pro fighters and has been badly injured in those sessions. They were sessions you basically don't go to because fighters who were definitely out of my league would really go for you.

You think it is some sort of joke. But it is a real self defence situation some times.

Agree. There is a lot of science out there on the real safety of sparring gear. I am still an advocate of headgear but it can definitely give a person a false sense of security. I can say from experience you can still be knocked out wearing headgear.
Gloves can do the same thing on either side of the equation.

Another good example are shoulder pad neck rolls that were very popular in football when I played. Later it was confirmed that they were a major contributor to a Lot of back and spinal injuries.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

the real safety of sparring gear.

The challenge fight is not life and death fight. If you can land a punch on my head. The fight is over. You win and I lose. You don't have to kill me to prove that you are better than me.

 

[JowGaWolf]

but it can definitely give a person a false sense of security.

I think most people use protective gear wrong. I think most think that it's ok to get hit if they have gear on. For example, they will take risks with gear that they won't take without gear. The way that I look at my protective gear is that it's there in case I screw up. I still try to being hit in the head. Other times people think they can hit someone in the head harder just because someone has head gear. This are 2 assumptions that often get people in trouble.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

it can definitely give a person a false sense of security.

Fighting is like "your shirt is catching on fire". You will need that kind of alert in fighting. The protection gear just take that feeling away from you.

 

[isshinryuronin]

I think most people use protective gear wrong. I think most think that it's ok to get hit if they have gear on. For example, they will take risks with gear that they won't take without gear. The way that I look at my protective gear is that it's there in case I screw up. I still try to being hit in the head. Other times people think they can hit someone in the head harder just because someone has head gear. This are 2 assumptions that often get people in trouble.

When the foam hand pads and headgear first came out for tournaments (I think Master Jhoon Rhee's innovation) back in 1973/4, or there about, they were not well received by many traditional karateka (as well as shin, foot and arm pads - the old guard called them pu--y pads.) They were bulky, made one's technique sloppy, made strikes easier to block, and encouraged heavier contact. The result was, IMO, just as many injuries - the benefits being equaled by the liabilities.

Also, when punching with control, stopping the barehand strike 1/4 inch from the opponent's nose, the extra 1 inch thickness of the hand pad resulted in 3/4 inch of the pad being pushed into the opponent's nose. Took some time to adjust for the new distance. Overall, control by the attacker was reduced and the defender got a false sense of security.

Maybe those who were raised on the pads coped better with them. I remain with mixed feelings, mostly against (but maybe a little less against the older I get.)

 

[drop bear]

When the foam hand pads and headgear first came out for tournaments (I think Master Jhoon Rhee's innovation) back in 1973/4, or there about, they were not well received by many traditional karateka (as well as shin, foot and arm pads - the old guard called them pu--y pads.) They were bulky, made one's technique sloppy, made strikes easier to block, and encouraged heavier contact. The result was, IMO, just as many injuries - the benefits being equaled by the liabilities.

Also, when punching with control, stopping the barehand strike 1/4 inch from the opponent's nose, the extra 1 inch thickness of the hand pad resulted in 3/4 inch of the pad being pushed into the opponent's nose. Took some time to adjust for the new distance. Overall, control by the attacker was reduced and the defender got a false sense of security.

Maybe those who were raised on the pads coped better with them. I remain with mixed feelings, mostly against (but maybe a little less against the older I get.)

You really have to be able to make contact to understand the mechanics of a fight properly.

 

[dvcochran]

You really have to be able to make contact to understand the mechanics of a fight properly.

Have you watched any of the pro bare knuckle fights? That is rough stuff. I do think that is one area where padding really helps. You can still bruise and even break bones when padded up. But torn skin and bleeding is almost non-existent, the nose being the main exception.

I am sure you know some of the punching methods to tear or break skin. Very, very effective.

 

[drop bear]

Have you watched any of the pro bare knuckle fights? That is rough stuff. I do think that is one area where padding really helps. You can still bruise and even break bones when padded up. But torn skin and bleeding is almost non-existent, the nose being the main exception.

I am sure you know some of the punching methods to tear or break skin. Very, very effective.

Yeah. I know some guys who have done bare knuckle competitions. Obviously with mma. Knees and elbows open people up.

There is even some guys who are going to do bare knuckle with head butts soon.

All of those guys train with gloves.

Otherwise I don't tend to use methods that cut people specifically. I want to render people ineffective and blunt force I think is a little better at that generally.

Even in Cambodia? (Not sure) they train with gloves on.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The challenge fight is not life and death fight. If you can land a punch on my head. The fight is over. You win and I lose. You don't have to kill me to prove that you are better than me.

I'm not a fan of that thought process. That implies that landing a single punch is all that matters. A good boxer might actually let me get a test jab in that makes contact, because it puts me in range of his counter. Me making contact with his head once doesn't mean I'd have won in a real test of ability. In fact, if all I have to do is touch someone, it changes the range dynamics, because I no longer have to be concerned with my ability to deliver power or mass to the target.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I think most people use protective gear wrong. I think most think that it's ok to get hit if they have gear on. For example, they will take risks with gear that they won't take without gear. The way that I look at my protective gear is that it's there in case I screw up. I still try to being hit in the head. Other times people think they can hit someone in the head harder just because someone has head gear. This are 2 assumptions that often get people in trouble.

I think the problem is that hits don't feel as bad, so folks get used to getting hit harder than they think. It's a problem inherent in using that gear all the time. It's probably safer if gear is fitted to the level of intensity. So, for light sparring, maybe no gear at all.

 

[jobo]

I'm not a fan of that thought process. That implies that landing a single punch is all that matters. A good boxer might actually let me get a test jab in that makes contact, because it puts me in range of his counter. Me making contact with his head once doesn't mean I'd have won in a real test of ability. In fact, if all I have to do is touch someone, it changes the range dynamics, because I no longer have to be concerned with my ability to deliver power or mass to the target.

i think he is being a bit to general, but yes to some extent, if you hit a"normal"person full force, it really should be knocking them over, or at least out on their feet for a short time,

i know there are people who can absorb a great deal, but if it happens to you against a lot of people , particular if you hit them a few times,then you really need to consider your punching power training

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

if all I have to do is touch someone, it changes the range dynamics, because I no longer have to be concerned with my ability to deliver power or mass to the target.

If you punch and your opponent can't block it. It means you have better speed training than he has. As far as the speed is concern, you win and he lose.

The challenge can be in many different forms. Someone can challenge you in speed, power, punch only, kick only, throw only, ground game only, ...

I was challenge in arm wrestling one time. In that challenge, I didn't have to worry about speed.

In my personal experience, most of the personal challenge are civilized.

A: I think I'm faster than you.
B: Come and try me.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

i think he is being a bit to general, but yes to some extent, if you hit a"normal"person full force, it really should be knocking them over, or at least out on their feet for a short time,

i know there are people who can absorb a great deal, but if it happens to you against a lot of people , particular if you hit them a few times,then you really need to consider your punching power training

I'm not sure you read my post beyond the first sentence, since the entire point was that tag-scoring doesn't guarantee you'd have gotten in a punch with any force.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

If you punch and your opponent can't block it. It means you have better speed training than he has. As far as the speed is concern, you win and he lose.

The challenge can be in many different forms. Someone can challenge you in speed, power, punch only, kick only, throw only, ground game only, ...

I was challenge in arm wrestling one time. In that challenge, I didn't have to worry about speed.

In my personal experience, most of the personal challenge are civilized.

A: I think I'm faster than you.
B: Come and try me.

I can punch really fast and from farther away when I don't need to worry about form (to protect myself) or ranging (to deliver power). That tag isn't really a good measure of my actual punching speed or ability to deliver useful punches.

IMO, continuous light, technical sparring is a better guage. it still suffers some of the issues, but it's no longer a matter of first-tap, and superior skill will normally show through.

 

[jobo]

I'm not sure you read my post beyond the first sentence, since the entire point was that tag-scoring doesn't guarantee you'd have gotten in a punch with any force.

it really should, if your using punch mechanics rather than slapping, energy as we have discussed at great lenth being largly dependent on velocity

it should at least gaureente that you could have landed a telling punch if you had wanted to

 

[JowGaWolf]

So, for light sparring, maybe no gear at all.

It both the participants are not learning how to apply techniques, then yes. This means they are already using what they are good at and most comfortable with. But if they are learning how to use a technique then I would put the gear on.

If the learning is honest, then that means they are taking bigger risks by trying to apply a technique that they may not understand yet. This means they are going to eat a lot of punches that otherwise they would have been able to avoid. Depending on the system being trained, that person may end up moving into a kick, punch, knee, or elbow, or an upper cut. At least that's how it was for me. I just had to accept the fact that I was going to get hit a lot so I needed someone who could control there power.

Most of the times, I got punched in the face, but one time I got kicked in the head and was thankful that the kick wasn't hard and that I wasn't feeling that shin.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

it really should, if your using punch mechanics rather than slapping, energy as we have discussed at great lenth being largly dependent on velocity

Go find a wall, and give it a tap with the fastest move you can. It's still a tap.

it should at least gaureente that you could have landed a telling punch if you had wanted to

Now try that tap at a distance where you can't do more than give a healthy finger-poke. Being able to tag something isn't the same as being able to punch it hard. Now add to that the fact that some fighters are good at reading feints (many of which are fast, uncommitted punches). They've developed their pattern recognition so that they automatically don't respond to punches that aren't a threat, so those punches can't be used to set them up for something else.

If I can tag someone, it does mean I had a better chance at punching them hard than if I hadn't been able to tag them. But I don't buy that the person who's better at speed tag is also the better fighter.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It both the participants are not learning how to apply techniques, then yes. This means they are already using what they are good at and most comfortable with. But if they are learning how to use a technique then I would put the gear on.

If the learning is honest, then that means they are taking bigger risks by trying to apply a technique that they may not understand yet. This means they are going to eat a lot of punches that otherwise they would have been able to avoid. Depending on the system being trained, that person may end up moving into a kick, punch, knee, or elbow, or an upper cut. At least that's how it was for me. I just had to accept the fact that I was going to get hit a lot so I needed someone who could control there power.

Most of the times, I got punched in the face, but one time I got kicked in the head and was thankful that the kick wasn't hard and that I wasn't feeling that shin.

That's reasonable. I think we may also have a different view of light, technical sparring. Nothing is delivered with any significant force, so even if you walk into a strike, it's unlikely to do more than bruise a bit. I prefer this with either very thin gloves (MMA, for instance) or none, as it keeps folks from developing bad habits, and gives them a chance to get used to (and be less surprised by) being hit.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

IMO, continuous light, technical sparring is a better guage.

When someone challenges me, I have the right to set up the rule and make fight simple.

Sometimes I like to ask a challenger just to block my one circular punch. When I throw a right circular punch, if my opponent can use his left arm (not right arm) to block it. He wins and I lose.

If my opponent can block the most powerful punch that I can generate, he wins already. Any continuous fighting after that just make me to look like a fool.

 

[jobo]

Go find a wall, and give it a tap with the fastest move you can. It's still a tap.


Now try that tap at a distance where you can't do more than give a healthy finger-poke. Being able to tag something isn't the same as being able to punch it hard. Now add to that the fact that some fighters are good at reading feints (many of which are fast, uncommitted punches). They've developed their pattern recognition so that they automatically don't respond to punches that aren't a threat, so those punches can't be used to set them up for something else.

If I can tag someone, it does mean I had a better chance at punching them hard than if I hadn't been able to tag them. But I don't buy that the person who's better at speed tag is also the better fighter.

have you actualky tried that, in the intrsst of science ive just punched the wall with the fastest movement, it hurt ny hand and has left a depresion in the plaster, now you try it