What makes a Martial Arts System Practical for Physical Self-Defense?

[Gerry Seymour]

Hey there Gerry, I know you've said this to both Jobo and me at this point, but I'm not sure where you're coming from. I agree that what I do would be hard to teach in a group setting and so is of little use in a typical commercial martial arts class format but it sounds like Jobo's methods would be more accessible to a setting with minimal equipment and larger groups. Regardless, the original post asked...



... and it sounds to me like you read this as, "What is a practical way to teach self defense in a commercial martial arts school?". If that were the question then strength training the way I do may not be relevant as a part of in class training, but that doesn't mean it might not be relevant to the original question.

If I were to answer this question, which I realize I haven't, I would say:

A martial arts system is practical for self defense if it teaches a small set of high value techniques (Kung Fu Wang would say door guarding techniques) that are suitable for addressing the threats that the student reasonably expects to encounter (a 19 year old female college student has different worries than a 50 year old male celebrity for instance). It should have drills of whatever sort are necessary to ingrain these techniques such that they are embedded in muscle memory and can be applied effectively against a fully resisting attacker of the appropriate threat profile.

If we're limiting ourselves to just answering the original question and not expanding upon it at all that's the extent of my answer. Other people have pointed out (correctly in my opinion) that this isn't the whole picture. If the student isn't fit enough to apply the techniques to the expected threat then they need to do some fitness training. Whether that is the responsibility of the system or not is another question.

If you feel that fitness has to be part of the in class curriculum of the system itself then I think that the kinds of fitness training Jobo is suggesting are a good candidate for that purpose. If you feel that fitness training must simply be a part of the student's training, but that it doesn't need to take part during group training, then the sort of training that I'm advocating is immanently practical for providing the necessary fitness component.

Am I missing something?

Cheers!

Michael

My point was that fitness that requires equipment not available in a dojo, cannot be provided within the framework of those classes. I'm not talking about what a person can do outside classes - that's (by my reckoning) no longer part of the system.

 

[jobo]

It's not something a group of people can do in the middle of a dojo, so not relevant to the context.

It's not something a group of people can do in the middle of a dojo, so not relevant to the context.

why ever not, ? you could get one half holding feet whilst the other half do push ups, thats training for both halfs
or put your feet agaibst the wall, you have walls i take it, that a bit harder, as you have got to push backwards as well to keep your feet on the wall, better work up to that one, go with hands
you dont want a,solution, do you ?

 

[skribs]

If some stranger wants to test your punching power, ask you to punch him as hard as you can in front of public, what will you do?

What will you do when you have accepted a personal challenge? If you take easy on your opponent, next day there will be many other challengers. If you give your opponent a hard time, people may leave you along after that.

So when you throw that punch, do you want to hurt your opponent, or not?

Your bad reputation may be the only way that you can live peacefully through your old age.

If you back out of a fight, they think you're a coward. If you fight, someone is going to get hurt. I'd rather be thought a coward than have someone get hurt. If they escalate it beyond a request, then, and only then, will I fight.

I believe for the vast majority of martial artists, we don't have challengers lining up to take us on. With a few exceptions (maybe someone famous or someone in prison, for example), I think that's a pretty safe assumption.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

If you back out of a fight, they think you're a coward. If you fight, someone is going to get hurt. I'd rather be thought a coward than have someone get hurt. If they escalate it beyond a request, then, and only then, will I fight.

I believe for the vast majority of martial artists, we don't have challengers lining up to take us on. With a few exceptions (maybe someone famous or someone in prison, for example), I think that's a pretty safe assumption.

You just start your MA class in front of your 50 students. A guy with a Karate uniform and a black belt on his waist who walks into your class, bows to you, and says, "May I spar with you?"

You were in your 30, top shape in your life. Will you turn down someone's challenge in front of your 50 students?

The praying mantis master Brendan Lai told me how did he accept a challenge fight. He told the challenger that he was going to throw just 1 punch. If his opponent could block it, his opponent won, Otherwise, he won.

My SC senior brother David C. K. Lin told me how did he accept a challenge fight. He told the challenger that he was going to attack him 3 times. if in any 1 of those 3 attacks, the challenger could remain standing on his feet for more than 3 seconds, the challenger won, otherwise he won.

In the above 2 examples, both tested their offense skill.

You can also test your defense skill (this is even more civilized in my opinion). You may tell the challenger that he can throw 20 punches toward you. If among those 20 punches, any punch that can land on your body, he wins, otherwise you win.

You challenge me. I let you attack me and I only play defense. You just can't find any more civilized challenge fight than this.

There are many civilized way to accept a challenge fight. IMO, the challenge fight is an excellent way to test your MA skill.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

You just start your MA class in front of your 50 students. A guy with a Karate uniform and a black belt on his waist who walks into your class, bows to you, and says, "May I spar with you?"

You were in your 30, top shape in your life. Will you turn down someone's challenge in front of your 50 students?

Yup. I'd tell him I'm in the middle of teaching a class, he's welcome to join the class if he'd like, but otherwise I'm going back to teaching. If he insists past that I tell him I'm calling the police.

On top of that, that's not something that happens anymore.

 

[skribs]

You just start your MA class in front of your 50 students. A guy with a Karate uniform and a black belt on his waist who walks into your class, bows to you, and says, "May I spar with you?"

You were in your 30, top shape in your life. Will you turn down someone's challenge in front of your 50 students?

The praying mantis master Brendan Lai told me how did he accept a challenge fight. He told the challenger that he was going to throw just 1 punch. If his opponent could block it, his opponent won, Otherwise, he won.

My SC senior brother David C. K. Lin told me how did he accept a challenge fight. He told the challenger that he was going to attack him 3 times. if in any 1 of those 3 attacks, the challenger could remain standing on his feet for more than 3 seconds, the challenger won, otherwise he won.

In the above 2 examples, both tested their offense skill.

You can also test your defense skill (this is even more civilized in my opinion). You may tell the challenger that he can throw 20 punches toward you. If among those 20 punches, any punch that can land on your body, he wins, otherwise you win.

You challenge me. I let you attack me and I only play defense. You just can't find any more civilized challenge fight than this.

There are many civilized way to accept a challenge fight. IMO, the challenge fight is an excellent way to test your MA skill.

Show of hands. How many people have actually had this happen?

On the rare chance that it did, I would politely decline. And if he pressed the issue, I would call the police.

I don't know this person. I don't know what rules they'll want to fight under - rules which I may be ill prepared for and would make me look foolish. I don't know if he wants a friendly bout or if he's going to keep going even if he TKO's me. This isn't a sanctioned bout with a referee. It's a random dude walking in off the street with what might as well be pajamas he bought off of Amazon. At the very least, he's interrupting my class. I have nothing to gain by fighting him. He's put me in a situation where the best outcome for me is that everything stays the same.

I would want my students to learn that you avoid fighting at all costs. And just because he wanted to fight me, doesn't mean I have to fight him.

 

[dvcochran]

A college coed, for example, can anticipate that she may be the victim of sexual assault and take steps to mitigate that violence. But would she be justified in ripping out the trachea of the bad guy?

It is easy for experienced people to set on the sidelines and make assertions like these. You frame this as if you Never done anything stupid in your life. While I fully agree that a college girl should be prepared for certain encounters, that certainly does not mean the are not and do not happen. Even when one side does take steps to prevent it.
So would she be justified? Yes and YES.
You clearly do not understand "an eye for an eye".

Or let's look at cops. Cops shouldn't generally be killing folks. And when they do, how often do they use the hyper violent techniques that are often taught in self defense classes? Generally, when a cop kills someone it's with a gun.

Fully agree. Although I am not at all certain what 'cops' have to do with this subject. It is their job to protect and be involved in and with the most unsavory people in the country. Their approach to this kind of situation is going to be completely different from the average layperson.

Point isn't to undercut the seriousness of violent crime. It's simply to point out that brutally, ruthlessly murdering a bad guy is not reasonable.

It must be weighed against the action being taken against you. Very, very few people can accurately assess an attack situation in real time and make the kind of decisions you think everyone should be able to make.
If someone is trying to kill you or yours, it would never be ruthless murder. Brutal? Yea, most likely.
Reasonable? Definitely.

And if you're in a profession or field where you may actually need to ruthlessly kill folks (e.g., cop, soldier, mercenary, gang member, professional hit man), that to me isn't self defense. It's professional violence, in the same way that when an MMA fighter steps into the ring, what they he/she is doing isn't self defense. And in these violent professions, the rules of engagement are unique to the role.

Again, not a reasonable comparison. This is two consenting people bashing on each other. This could not be more different in scope.

And any preparation should be contextual. A surprising number of people are killed by agricultural machinery, so one would expect that people who work around agricultural machinery would want to take steps to mitigate those risks. But these steps wouldn't be all that helpful to folks who seldom or never encounter that machinery. It's specific.

What???

con·text·u·al
/kənˈteksCHo͝oəl/
adjective

1. depending on or relating to the circumstances that form the setting for an event, statement, or idea.
   "he included contextual information in footnotes"
   • depending on the preceding or following parts of a text to clarify meaning.
     "they have limited practice in working out the meaning of unfamiliar material from contextual clues"

You are trying to compare an accident involving equipment to a human assaulting another human.
Sure it is easy to say "should have, could have, would have". But accidents still happen.
Comparing this to an assault makes no sense what so ever.


To your "It's specific" comment. So, of course it is? An attack or accident is specific to the person(s) involved. It would be very personal. That in no way means it does not happen or could not happen to you or anyone else.

This is what any kind of preparation is about. But this puts the conversation into a whole different realm.

 

[JowGaWolf]

and it sounds to me like you read this as, "What is a practical way to teach self defense in a commercial martial arts school?".

Nope I know the answer to this. What I don't know is the perspective that others define Practical

Edit. I know what Practical is to me but not everyone sees it the same way that I see it. So I'm trying to get a feel of how to say. For example, "We teach practical martial arts techniques." and then have everyone be on the same page. So I'm thinking I'll have to define it so that there is no confusion as to what I'm referring to as being practical.

I didn't thing the perspectives would vary as much as what has been described.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I have nothing to gain by fighting him. ... I would want my students to learn that you avoid fighting at all costs.

Your gain is to have a chance to test your MA skill.

IMO, "avoid fighting" is different from "accumulate fighting experience during young age".

Back in 1980, this guy in black (from US) who went to Taiwan and challenged anybody in the public. The guy in the white used finger jab and hit on the challenger's throat and ended the fight.

One time I went back to Taiwan from US. My friend suggested me to challenge the guy in white. I went to his MA school. He knew I was a challenger. Since he was very polite to me. I didn't challenge him that day.

Back in the 80, Bruce Frantzis also went to Taiwan and public challenged everybody. He told Taiwan TV station that nobody in Taiwan had courage to accept his challenge. One day he challenged my teacher in the park (Bruce was in his 30 and my teacher was in his 70).

Challenge fight was very popular back in those day. Today, it seems to me that nobody challenge anybody any more.

 

[dvcochran]

Show of hands. How many people have actually had this happen?

On the rare chance that it did, I would politely decline. And if he pressed the issue, I would call the police.

I don't know this person. I don't know what rules they'll want to fight under - rules which I may be ill prepared for and would make me look foolish. I don't know if he wants a friendly bout or if he's going to keep going even if he TKO's me. This isn't a sanctioned bout with a referee. It's a random dude walking in off the street with what might as well be pajamas he bought off of Amazon. At the very least, he's interrupting my class. I have nothing to gain by fighting him. He's put me in a situation where the best outcome for me is that everything stays the same.

I would want my students to learn that you avoid fighting at all costs. And just because he wanted to fight me, doesn't mean I have to fight him.

Agree. Even if you fought and won, you would loose in the long run.

 

[dvcochran]

Your gain is to have a chance to test your MA skill.

IMO, "avoid fighting" is different from "accumulate fighting experience during young age".

So you advocate bar fighting in your 20's?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

So you advocate bar fighting in your 20's?

I don't go to bar. I don't like the bar environment.

When I was young, I liked to go to Karate school and watched the class. At the end of the class, I would ask a certain student if he was willing to spar with me in the park during the weekend. Most of the time people would accept my polite invitation. That was the way I formed my fighting club when I was young. My fighting club had TKD guy, Kenpo guy. Hapkido guy, Okinawa Karate guy, MT guy, Kung Fu guy (myself). That was the best time in my life.

 

[dvcochran]

I don't go to bar. I don't like the bar environment.

When I was young, I liked to go to Karate school and watched the class. At the end of the class, I would ask a certain student if he was willing to spar with me in the park during the weekend. Most of the time people would accept my polite invitation. That was the way I formed my fighting club when I was young. My fighting club had TKD guy, Kenpo guy. Hapkido guy, Okinawa Karate guy, MT guy, Kung Fu guy (myself). That was the best time in my life.

That was/is a great thing to do. But completely different from a stranger coming into your school and challenging the instructor.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

That was/is a great thing to do. But completely different from a stranger coming into your school and challenging the instructor.

It can be worse than that.

Bruce Frantzis met my teacher in the park in Taiwan. Bruce asked my teacher, "What is the application of the Taiji needle at the bottom of the sea?" When my teacher tried to explain him the application, Bruce went behind my teacher's back and gave my teacher a bear hug. Bruce then said, "What can you do now?"

If Bruce could take my teacher down, my teacher's "Chinese wrestling king" reputation would be totally destroyed.

I don't mind the face to face challenge (I can turn down if I want to). But I have serious problem with this kind of surprised attack.

 

[_Simon_]

my bunny boiler radar was right

Oh man... that's horrendous.. and quite sad. Some contributions of his I actually rather enjoyed, unfortunate it came to that.

 

[_Simon_]

im not at a big on murdering people or indeed justifiable homicides, it mess up your life no end, so no, .

you got cross with me, when i pointed out the chance of any one of us dieing from covid was extremly small, bot your doing the same with violent crime, with no sence of irony ,


if your attacked which is a throw of the dice wrong place wrong time thing , 2 mins later it very well may not have happened at all or certainly not to you,

then you need to win, or you run the chance of being badly hurt, trying to work out the probability of you being attacked is exceedingly low whilst you are being attacked is a bit of a waste of time its happening, now

now all thibgs being equal you probebly wont get attacked if you minding your own business, then all youve wasted is a vit of time

i did get attacked a couple or so years ago, middle of nowhere not a care the world, ATTACKED, after a minor discusion about dog control, by someone much younger and much bigger, so it happens

telling me its unlikely now isnt helpful, my karate was

Just curious, how do you then view holding grudges for decades, waiting to exact your revenge, assaulting an elderly man, breaking his walking sticks etc.. ? I'm genuinely curious

 

[_Simon_]

It can be as simple as a personal challenge.

That doesn't sound random to me, or common.

If some stranger wants to test your punching power, ask you to punch him as hard as you can in front of public, what will you do?

What will you do when you have accepted a personal challenge? If you take easy on your opponent, next day there will be many other challengers. If you give your opponent a hard time, people may leave you along after that.

So when you throw that punch, do you want to hurt your opponent, or not?

Your bad reputation may be the only way that you can live peacefully through your old age.

 

[jobo]

Just curious, how do you then view holding grudges for decades, waiting to exact your revenge, assaulting an elderly man, breaking his walking sticks etc.. ? I'm genuinely curious

well lets be clear, im an elderly man as well, so its not as bad as you make it sound. and i didnt really assault him in the normal sense of the word.

how do i view holding grudges, i dont view ut really i just do it,

you have to do quite a lot to me to get into my serious grudge book, not the normal cut and thrust of life, i saw someone who stole a motorbike tyre off me in 1986, i decided to let that go, that had only a 10 year grudge attached

on the other hand, a guy who done me wrong in 1984, had the family haulage firms major contract cancelled, when karma put me in charge of vetting contracts, for an international construction firm in 2006, some times you just have to wait

 

[_Simon_]

well lets be clear, im an elderly man as well, so its not as bad as you make it sound. and i didnt really assault him in the normal sense of the word.

how do i view holding grudges, i dont view ut really i just do it,

you have to do quite a lot to me to get into my serious grudge book, not the normal cut and thrust of life, i saw someone who stole a motorbike tyre off me in 1986, i decided to let that go, that had only a 10 year grudge attached

I don't think your age has any relevancy as a factor here.. but okeydokey, was just curious as you used the word 'justifiable' in the quoted post about homicide/murder, and that you didn't agree with that.

 

[jobo]

I don't think your age has any relevancy as a factor here.. but okeydokey, was just curious as you used the word 'justifiable' in the quoted post about homicide/murder, and that you didn't agree with that.

i didnt kill him, just broke his sticks, of course my age has relevance, if he wasnt much the dame age as me, then the whole thibg wouldnt have happen, then or now

im genuinely not big on killing people