What is TSD history?

Discussion in 'Tang Soo Do' started by Kframe, Jan 8, 2012.

  1. kbarrett

    kbarrett Orange Belt

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    The true history and origins of TSD have been best to death, as one person said it all depends on who you believe. GM Won Kuk Lee learned (Okinawan Karate) Shotokan while living in Japan, he brought Shotokan back with him to Korea in 1944 but he called his style Tang Soo Do, then in 1945 he founded the Chung Do Kwan, at that point he arts was known as Chung Do Kwan Tang Soo Do. GM Hwang Keen went to China where he learn Tai chi chaun and train in Sholin Long Fist, returning to Korea he opened a dojang calling his atr Hwa Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan, which failed and he close it. During this time it is reported that he train with MG Won Kuk Lee in Tang Soo Do and in 1947 reopened his dojang calling style Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan. I believe it was in the 50's mabe the 60's he started the slow change to become Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan after he found the Muye Dobo Tonji which really influenced him a lot. This is what I have come to learn, again there are so many different stories I wonder whether it really matters any more. Ken
     
  2. Makalakumu

    Makalakumu Gonzo Karate Apocalypse

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    I wonder how much Hwang Kee's job on the railroad affected the spread of his school? I read that there was a dojang in a whole bunch of train stations all around South Korea.
     
  3. puunui

    puunui Senior Master

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    According to GM Lee, he came back to Korea in January 1944 and opened the Chung Do Kwan in September 1944, not 1945.


    I think GM Hwang learned tai chi in Manchuria but not long fist. There is a form called jang kwon which is part of the moo duk kwan curriculum, but we established that GM Hwang Kee learned jang kwon from GM YOON Byung In.

    He started training with one of GM Lee's students, GM HYUN Jong Myung while both were working at Seoul Station, in 1944 I believe. He hung around the Chung Do Kwan and would attend all of the belt tests, but I don't think he actually studied directly under GM Lee. I believe GM Lee said that he studied with GM Hyun at Seoul Station, that GM Hyun asked GM Lee to give GM Hwang rank, and GM Lee gave him a 6th guep, white belt.
     
  4. kbarrett

    kbarrett Orange Belt

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    Your right GM Won Kuk Lee studied Okinawan Karate (Shotokan) while in Japan, but when he returned to Korea and after he got permission from the Japanese to open a school he started teaching Okinawan Karate calling his art "Tang Soo Do" I believe it wasn't until after the liberation of Korea in 1945 the GM Won Kuku Lee founded the Chung Do Kwan and it was at that point that his style came to be known as the Chung Do Kwan Tang Soo Do and today it's known as the Chung Do Kwan Tae Kwon Do. GM Hwang Kee's Hwa Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan was founded in November 1945 after his return from China, where he studied "Tai Chi Chuan" as for the "Long Fist" I'm not 100% sure whether he studied that or not but that is what I've herd over th years. From what I've learn over the year GM Kee did study at the Chung Do kwan, and got the rank or 6th gup. and some time after that he startedtraining with Ki Wang Kim where it's said GM Kee learned the bulk of the Hyungs that are in the Tang Soo Do system today, and in 1947 GM Kee reopened his Moo Duk Kwan dojang calling his art Moo Duk Kwan Tang Soo Do, and would be many years later that he start making the changes to Moo Duk Kwan Soo Bahk Do after he found the Muye Dobo Tonji in the library, he is also the one who created the Yuk Rho, Chil Sung, Hwa Sun Hyung from what he learn from the Muye Dobo tonji, this is waht I've come to learn after all these years,andwhile it's great learning different history I'll still say does it really matter any more who started what first, that was in 1945 most us wheren't born yet, and now it's 2012 we're all so far removed from that period time. Mr. Puunui I have enjoyed talking with about thsi subject thank you, take care. Ken
     
  5. puunui

    puunui Senior Master

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    GM Lee opened the Chung Do Kwan in 1944. It is on the Chung Do Kwan certificates in the middle of the symbol, the date 1944. The name Tangsoodo and Chung Do Kwan were used at the same time. GM Lee created the name Tangsoodo. GM Lee said that he had to temporarily shut down the Chung Do Kwan after the liberation in August 1945 because the country was in chaos. He reopened the Chung Do Kwan in February 1946 when things settled down.


    The seniors dispute that November 1945 opening date, saying there is no evidence of that.


    That information originally came from me, the 6th guep white belt thing. The Chung Do Kwan still has those records.

    My understanding is that GM KIM Ki Whang had a good relationship with GM HONG Chong Soo (Moo Duk Kwan #10) and would visit GM Hong's dojang and teach there. I believe GM Hwang met GM Kim through GM Hong. By the way, GM HWANG Kee's last name is Hwang, not Kee.


    It matters if someone truly wishes to understand what happened, and why. It's always better to have a clear picture, rather than a muddled one.
     
  6. IRISH KMA

    IRISH KMA White Belt

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    I have intended to ask this question for awhile but was afraid it would turn into the proverbial mud slinging thread. My question is how much formal training did GM Hwang Kee really have and was he experienced enough to start his own kwan? The reason I ask is because I come from a Moo Duk Kwan Tae Kwon Do background. I have always figured there had to be something there when you see some of the skilled martial artist that it has turned out.
     
  7. kbarrett

    kbarrett Orange Belt

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    Puunui, I stand corrected the Chung Do Kwan Tang Soo Do was started in 1944, my mistake.
    As for GM Hwang Kee's experience and starting his own Kwan, I'd yes he did have enough experience even though his history is some what cloudy. We know he trained in China learning Yang style Tai Chi chuan, and maybe had some training in shaloin Long Fist and he did open a dojang teaching his own style calling it Hwa Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan which failed and closed, some time bewteen then and 1947 he spend time learn Okinawan Karate under GM Won Kuk Lee at the Chung Do Kwan which he only reciveved a 6th gup ranking, along with train with others who had learn Okinawan Karate and reopened his dojang in 1947 calling it Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan, whether his rank was legit or not I'm not so sure, the Moo Duk Kwan has produced some very good martial artist of the last 50 plus year so he must have done something right. So did he have enough experince yes, was he a Grand Master yes, he was successful in creating something that has last for over 60 plus years and is still going strong. Ken
     
  8. puunui

    puunui Senior Master

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    We do not really know how much formal instruction he received. I can tell you that at least by the late 50's/early 60's, GM Hwang was considered a terrific martial artist. One of my teachers did his military service in at the Korean Air Force Academy as a martial arts instructor. GM Hwang was the head instructor there, so for three years, my teacher got personal instruction from GM Hwang. My instructor said that GM Hwang was excellent, and that he learned many things from him.
     
  9. MasterPistella

    MasterPistella Yellow Belt

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    GM Hwang was an awesome man. He used to spend a lot of time at our school. C S Kim's before Master Kim left the federation. This is the question & it's a matter of opinion. Did he study with or under GM Lee? He taught Lee some things, Lee taught him some things. This I got from someone who was there. His formal training, by his own admission was very limited. He learned by watching Tae Kyun & only had a couple years of Tai Chi training. Despite that, he became one of the greatest martial artists of his time.
     
  10. Obi1

    Obi1 White Belt

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    Yes!!! That is correct!!!
     
  11. Obi1

    Obi1 White Belt

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    Jack, my Korean name is Sung.
     
  12. JR 137

    JR 137 Senior Master

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    Whoever “Jack” is, he hasn’t been in this discussion for going on 6 years now. Just sayin’.
     
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  13. DaveB

    DaveB Master Black Belt

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  14. lklawson

    lklawson Senior Master

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    Peace favor your sword,
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  15. dvcochran

    dvcochran 2nd Black Belt

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    I would need to see the move but it partially sounds like bad form. Raising the ready hand is to have the Um Yong or Yin Yang in the punch. You are "pulling" with the ready hand as hard are you are "pushing" with the punching hand. Also intended to help use the whole body. It is annoying to watch any style practitioner do a shoulder level punch. Totally dysfunctional. I always tell students to use the shoulder as a gauge; middle punch below the shoulder targeting the solar plexus, high punch above the shoulder targeting the philtrum. My GM (Seoung Eui Shin, www.mastershinonline.com) is deeply rooted in TSD.
     
  16. Tames D

    Tames D RECKLESS

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    Jack is having a smoke. He'll be back.
     
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