what is the finger spins in iado for?

[DuskB4Dawn]

recently I have seen in some videos like sucker punch and kill bill that they do some finger spins with the kitana. what is this called?. I have seen some videos on youtube explaining this is part of iado? is that true? I think it looks really cool. I remember seeing the movie zacatachi meets musashi that musashi does this too. there is a few samurai movies were they do this but I cant remember the names.

 

[Sanke]

Ummm, yeah, just so you know, those are in movies for a reason...
No legitimate batto or Iai system I've ever seen has any spinning with the fingers, and it's basically just fantasy, ineffective and frankly pointless, other than for show. The guys on youtube, like many people there, are just making stuff up.
Also so you know? It's spelt 'katana', not 'kitana'.

 

[Sukerkin]

Aye, beware of what is purported to be Iai that is put up on You-Tube. Nearly all of it consists of someone, usually young, who has bought a 'wallhanger' (or not even that ) and thinks they are Highlander :lol:.

Here is a clip to some musi jikiden eishin ryu Iai, the Bangai No Bu kata set, which is about as 'flash' as Iai gets:

[yt]CmcGEvtsgcE[/yt]

I'm not going to comment on the quality of the execution as that's not my point, tho' I'd be interested if some of my fellow MJER practioners here can tell me what they think of the exaggerated saya motions (and lack of a rear strike with it) in Raiden and what that little 'skip' is all about in Jinrai?

 

[Chris Parker]

Let's increase your education as to what is real in martial arts, and what is movie-jutsu, shall we?

Tatsumi Ryu Heiho Tojutsu (the Iai is found from about 4:30 onwards). Noticably absent is any form of chiburi.

Tamiya Ryu, coming from the early forms of Hayashizaki Ryu.

Shin Muso Hayashizaki Ryu, also coming from the old Hayashizaki Ryu.

Sosuishi Ryu Koshi no Mawari... a system featuring one of the most practical chiburi methods around, as well as a friend.

Yagyu Seigo Ryu, the Iai system taught with Yagyu Shinkage Ryu

Shingyoto Ryu, also very well known for their Nito (two sword) waza.

Shojitsu Kenri Kataichi Ryu, one of the only systems to have an armoured Iai system.

Tenshinsho Den Katori Shinto Ryu, one of the most dynamic systems around.

Right. Now to the less real ones....

Ogawa Ryu, a modern creation known for stealing bits and pieces of legit systems. Note the lack of relaxed movement, the unnecessary footwork, and the stealing of both Katori Shinto Ryu Noto and Chiburi and the same from Sosuishi Ryu.

These guys have also stolen kata from other systems, in this case Katori Shinto Ryu, and completely fail to understand them.

Lord knows where this guy made this up from....

This man should not be let near a sword... this is completely invented ridiculousness...

Again, completely made up. Anytime you see these "twirly" actions, the person has no business being near a sword.

You know, I could go on, but here's a better idea. Check out this thread: http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103696

Or try jumping on somewhere like Kendoworld and asking the same questions... but, be warned, they won't be so kind! Actually, don't jump on Kendoworld... it wouldn't be fun for you.

 

[Sanke]

Aye, beware of what is purported to be Iai that is put up on You-Tube. Nearly all of it consists of someone, usually young, who has bought a 'wallhanger' (or not even that ) and thinks they are Highlander :lol:.

Here is a clip to some musi jikiden eishin ryu Iai, the Bangai No Bu kata set, which is about as 'flash' as Iai gets:

I dunno, Katori does some pretty cool looking stuff

Though still very practical, unlike most of the flashy stuff that most people think is real.

Can't really comment on the MJER stuff, doesn't look quite right, but not terrible, but my Iai experience is pretty limited.

 

[Chris Parker]

Ha, you'll get there, though. Your Iai system is basically the "sister" of MJER, so you'll come across a different form of those kata as time goes on.

 

[Sanke]

Ha, you'll get there, though. Your Iai system is basically the "sister" of MJER, so you'll come across a different form of those kata as time goes on.

Good to know there's a light at the end, haha. I'd recently heard (from you, I believe ) that the two systems were closely related, so I'm looking forward to getting to know the system better, and how the two differ.

Also, I had just posted that video when I came back and saw your post... kinda dwarfed mine in comparison

 

[Chris Parker]

Slightly different cutting mechanics, different Noto in places, some changes to the end of the kata (the finger on the kashira thing versus the hand "pushing" the kashira in at the end), some slight changes to structure, and a slightly different "feel" to the Ryu itself. That said, it depends on the teacher and branch... some MJER teachers don't do the "push the kashira" thing, others won't leave it off, some MSR teachers will include, others won't at all... but in reality, they are basically the same system, just different branches of them starting from Nakayama Hakudo in our instance.

 

[Ken Morgan]

What are the finger spins in iai called? Bull ****.
Nothing to add, my brothers in the JSA have all jumped in with good advice.

 

[Chris Parker]

Advice? Ha, I was just jumping on the opportunity to put up more favourite clips!

 

[DuskB4Dawn]

I have watched most all of these videos. my favorite is from Shojitsu Kenri Kataichi Ryu. I wonder what he is doing at about 1:08 I think he fakes or throws something? not sure
the Tenshinsho Den Katori Shinto Ryu is very dynamic indeed. lots of jumping.
some of the movies at the end are just ridiculous. its just crazy lol

by the way this is the youtube video I was talking about
[video=youtube_share;pSL4jYq6IPE]http://youtu.be/pSL4jYq6IPE[/video]

 

[Chris Parker]

Utter garbage. He's lucky not to run the sword straight through his hand the way he's performing Noto there. He's also lucky not to slice his thumb off with it's position on the Tsuba. These spins have nothing whatsoever to do with Iaido, are completely impractical, cause you to have far less control of the weapon unnecessarily, and are frankly useless. Ignore them unless you are choreographing a movie, they have no place in martial arts.

 

[Chris Parker]

I have watched most all of these videos. my favorite is from Shojitsu Kenri Kataichi Ryu. I wonder what he is doing at about 1:08 I think he fakes or throws something? not sure
the Tenshinsho Den Katori Shinto Ryu is very dynamic indeed. lots of jumping.
some of the movies at the end are just ridiculous. its just crazy lol

I've discussed the video above, so to answer these questions and comments....

In the Shojitsu Kenri Kataichi Ryu clip at 1:08, the practitioner brings his hand back to the tsuba first, which leads me to believe he is throwing a kozuka (a small utility knife sometimes housed in the saya of a tachi or katana, and occasionally used as a shuriken) as a distraction in order to have the time to draw his blade.

With the Shinto Ryu, this form of dynamism is found in the mainline, the Sugino line and others don't quite have the same approach, so you know. I'm not getting into why each are the way they are, though.

And yes, the last ones I posted are examples of "how NOT to do it"....

 

[billc]

Here is a question for the Katori Shinto Ryu. Why do they spin the blade edge up before they return it to the scabbard? I was always curious about that.

 

[billc]

This video shows the spin I was referring to at the 29 second mark. It seems to be a complete spin rather than the half spin I remembered.

 

[Sanke]

It's their chiburi, the method of removing the blood from the sword (though more realistically it's just getting the larger bits of flesh/brains, etc off...). I've never seen it done as a half spin, and I'm pretty sure it isn't meant to be done that way either.

I'd actually be interested to know if any other system of iai uses the same chiburi, as katori is the only one I've seen that uses that particular movement.


Sanke on the move.

 

[Sukerkin]

Though still very practical, unlike most of the flashy stuff that most people think is real.

Aye, I train alongside a Katori ryu class and their sensei has taught me the Iai that is part of their curriculum. Because I was pretty well grounded in my 'style' when I learned the Katori kata, those kata didn't half feel weird in terms of the footwork and cutting from 'the side' of the head (to avoid the helmet you are assumed to be wearing) . The 'spin-in-place' chiburi was a bit awkward to get right at first too - as with many things, it was 'knowing when to stop' so that the katana ended up edge down once more

 

[DuskB4Dawn]

Here is a question for the Katori Shinto Ryu. Why do they spin the blade edge up before they return it to the scabbard? I was always curious about that.

I noticed this aswell and thought it was quite peculiar. I thought it was to turn the blade to get ready to re sheath it and the hitting the handle to secure the pin that holds the blade in place

 

[Sanke]

I noticed this aswell and thought it was quite peculiar. I thought it was to turn the blade to get ready to re sheath it and the hitting the handle to secure the pin that holds the blade in place

If you see my post above, it's their chiburi, and it's spun 360 degrees. It's a separate action to the noto.

As for the hit on the handle, I highly doubt it has anything to do with the meguki, as it would be checked prior to the sword being worn in the first place. Not to mention, those things are pretty secure on their own, if you're needing to hit it back in place, you need a new one.
As for why the hit is there, I personally think it's just to give the blade a bit of a shake, to get as much blood/chunky bits off as possible. If anyone know differently, please correct me


Sanke on the move.

 

[Chris Parker]

Here is a question for the Katori Shinto Ryu. Why do they spin the blade edge up before they return it to the scabbard? I was always curious about that.

Right, first things first, I am not speaking on behalf of the Ryu, and I want to be emphatic about that. That said, there are a few details that can be cleared up here.

This video shows the spin I was referring to at the 29 second mark. It seems to be a complete spin rather than the half spin I remembered.

It's never been a "half spin". You're most likely thinking of the Noto aspect where you regrip the sword in a Gyakute position before sheathing.

It's their chiburi, the method of removing the blood from the sword (though more realistically it's just getting the larger bits of flesh/brains, etc off...). I've never seen it done as a half spin, and I'm pretty sure it isn't meant to be done that way either.

I'd actually be interested to know if any other system of iai uses the same chiburi, as katori is the only one I've seen that uses that particular movement.


Sanke on the move.

The action is known as "Kaiten Chiburi", which refers to "rolling blood-letting (literally, "shake to earth")". It is also used in other systems, but is particularly linked to Shinto Ryu as it is the only form they use (unlike systems such as Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu, Muso Shinden Ryu etc who use a variety, such as O Chiburi, Ko Chiburi, Yoko Chiburi etc). Older descriptions use the alternate pronunciation of "Chiburui", so you may see that around.

Aye, I train alongside a Katori ryu class and their sensei has taught me the Iai that is part of their curriculum. Because I was pretty well grounded in my 'style' when I learned the Katori kata, those kata didn't half feel weird in terms of the footwork and cutting from 'the side' of the head (to avoid the helmet you are assumed to be wearing) . The 'spin-in-place' chiburi was a bit awkward to get right at first too - as with many things, it was 'knowing when to stop' so that the katana ended up edge down once more

Out of interest, Suke, which line are they? If you're unsure, the clip that Bill posted shows a pretty clear distinction between the Sugino line (the first performers) and the Otake (mainline) Dojo, represented by Kyoso Shigetoshi Sensei, as it shows both the Sugino then the Otake forms of the kata after each other.

As far as Iai being a part of the Katori Shinto Ryu curriculum, yeah, a pretty big part of it! Along with the Omote Tachijutsu, the Omote Iai and Tachiai Battojutsu form the initial instruction in the system, so it's one of the first, and primary, areas you get taught.

I noticed this aswell and thought it was quite peculiar. I thought it was to turn the blade to get ready to re sheath it and the hitting the handle to secure the pin that holds the blade in place

Er, not in the slightest... in fact, that goes against the makeup of a Japanese sword in a number of ways there....

If you see my post above, it's their chiburi, and it's spun 360 degrees. It's a separate action to the noto.

As for the hit on the handle, I highly doubt it has anything to do with the meguki, as it would be checked prior to the sword being worn in the first place. Not to mention, those things are pretty secure on their own, if you're needing to hit it back in place, you need a new one.
As for why the hit is there, I personally think it's just to give the blade a bit of a shake, to get as much blood/chunky bits off as possible. If anyone know differently, please correct me


Sanke on the move.

Yep, that's essentially it. The turn loosens the material, and the hit sends a tremor down the blade to knock off anything left.