What is RWTB?

[tlhfirelion]

I am moving to a new town later this year and will need to leave Krav behind. There is one karate school and one RWTB school anywhere near this new town. I did a search on RWTB but I can't quite figure out what art form it is exactly other than the generic description of "a mix of disciplines".

I'm not sure what to make of it so I don't know if it would be of any interest. Thank you in advance for your assistance.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Do you have a link to their website? Actually seeing it someone on here may know the place/style but not recognize the initials off the top of our heads.

 

[tlhfirelion]

Do you have a link to their website? Actually seeing it someone on here may know the place/style but not recognize the initials off the top of our heads.

Thanks for the quick reply. I was poking around what I assume is their main homepage and clicked on this;

Sabum - Rosenbach Warrior Training Branches

I didn't know what a sabum was but I guess it means founder? He has a long list of titles here but it's a hodge podge of stuff that doesn't tell me what the end result will be. I've only taken Judo and Krav in my life. I tend to go for more straight forward stuff and less artistic stuff like katas in karate. Nothing wrong with those of course, I'm only interested in applicable self defense and attacker neutralization. So, I have no idea if this RWTB will be something I would want to do.

 

[Flying Crane]

I see he is an honorary admiral in the great navy of Nebraska.

yes, he lists that in his credentials. I wonder if that is just a test to see who is actually paying attention.

 

[Tez3]

I see he is an honorary admiral in the great navy of Nebraska.

I had to look that up because it looked intriguing,
Nebraska Admiral - Wikipedia



I imagine @Chris Parker could provide some enlightenment here.

 

[tlhfirelion]

I had to look that up because it looked intriguing,
Nebraska Admiral - Wikipedia



I imagine @Chris Parker could provide some enlightenment here.

I had to look that up as well. lol I can appreciate the humor in this award.

 

[Danny T]

Thanks for the quick reply. I was poking around what I assume is their main homepage and clicked on this;

Sabum - Rosenbach Warrior Training Branches

I didn't know what a sabum was but I guess it means founder? He has a long list of titles here but it's a hodge podge of stuff that doesn't tell me what the end result will be. I've only taken Judo and Krav in my life. I tend to go for more straight forward stuff and less artistic stuff like katas in karate. Nothing wrong with those of course, I'm only interested in applicable self defense and attacker neutralization. So, I have no idea if this RWTB will be something I would want to do.

Sabum nim refers to 'teacher' or 'instructor'. In some Korean systems 'Sabum' is what one with a 4th to 6th dan is called.

Only way to really know if it is something you would be interested in is to visit and participate in a few classes.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Danny T beat me to it. Was going to say probably an offshoot of TKD resulted in that name.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Well, looking at his credentials, basically all of it is either korean (TKD/hapkido) or Bujinkan ninjutsu-if he actually learned from Hatsumi directly that would be really cool! The 'alliance ranking board' from Dr. Jim Thomas seemed a bit weird to me, and quick google-fu supports my hunch that its one of those dime-a-dozen 'hall of fame' honorary titles.

Regardless, it seems like it would be cool to check out, an interesting mix of styles for a self defense system.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

if he actually learned from Hatsumi directly that would be really cool!

Probably not, other than perhaps attending a seminar with Hatsumi. Bujinkan rank certificates were (and perhaps still are - it's been a long time since I got mine) issued with Hatsumi's name on them even if the student had never met the man. In any case, "black belt" is not an instructor rank in the Bujinkan.

It looks like Mr. Rosenbach has a few low-level dan ranks (TKD, Hapkido, Bujinkan) which are presumably legitimate as well as some inflated/nonsensical ranks (10th dan Soke MMA) from certificate mills. He seems to have created his own system based on his experiences. I don't know what that system is like or how good the quality of instruction is likely to be.

 

[WaterGal]

Okay, so this guy claims he has:

• Instructor ranking from the ATA (American Taekwondo Association) - this is a real Taekwondo organization/franchise program based in the US, this is probably legit
• Instructor ranking from a defunct group out of Kansas that was called the International Council on Martial Arts Education, that I can't find much of anything about other than that they published a book in 1991
• a 1st dan from a Hapkido group I haven't heard of and Googling the name doesn't bring up any results other than his website
• a 3rd dan from the ITA, which from what I've heard is a group that broke off from the ATA a number of years ago over business/politics type reasons; this is probably also legit (edit: I looked it up, and ITA is the style of TKD taught in the "Tiger Rock" franchise of schools, which there appear to be one of those & some ATA schools in Ohama. He probably studied with them.)
• Ninjustsu black belt instructor.... I don't know anything about ninjutsu, I can't comment on this
• "Instructor Black Belt From Un Young Kim and the Ko Ki Kwon in Korea" - Umm, so this one. Kim Un-Yong was the President of the Kukkiwon, which is the international headquarters of the largest branch of Taekwondo (the style that's commonly referred as "World Taekwondo Federation style Taekwondo"). Any black belt certificate anyone got in this style of TKD during his tenure would've had his signature on it. I think my 1st dan has his signature on it. Also, there is no "instructor black belt" from Kukkiwon. They do have a Master Instructor course, but you get a certificate for that and a ranking of 1st/2nd/3rd level master instructor. If he doesn't know how to spell "Kukkiwon", and doesn't list a 4th dan with them, I'm guessing he didn't take this class. He probably got a 1st dan black belt from somebody at some point and they had him teach some classes for them.

• 2nd Degree Black Belt under Walt Lysak in Sento Karate - I've never heard of Sento karate, couldn't say
• Black Belt Instructor from the AAU (Amateur Athletic Union) - does the AAU issue instructor rankings? I thought they just ran tournaments. Maybe he did a coaching class with them.....
• Robert Bussey is one of these guys that puts out DVDs on how to be a ninja, right? Is he legit?
• "Martial Arts Hall of Fame" are all pay-for-play organizations. You send them a check, and they put you in their "hall of fame" so you look good.
• Same with any kind of "international soke coucil".

Okay, so I have no idea about the quality of this guy's classes. They may be good, or not. The only way to know is to go check it out. But his credentials appear to be.... somewhat padded.

 

[WaterGal]

Google tells me that there's some BJJ and boxing in Ohama - is that too far away for you?

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Ninjustsu black belt instructor.... I don't know anything about ninjutsu, I can't comment on this

Shodan is a relatively low-level rank in the Bujinkan and is not a teaching rank.

Robert Bussey is one of these guys that puts out DVDs on how to be a ninja, right? Is he legit?

Robert Bussey made a few short visits to Japan in the 80s and received a 4th dan in the Bujinkan. This was in the days when Hatsumi was literally awarding dan ranks to just about any Westerner who showed up and trained for a couple of weeks. (I had a friend with no prior martial arts background who received 1st dan after two weeks of training in Japan.) Bussey was an athletic guy with prior background in TKD, if I remember correctly. After those visits, Bussey went his own way and created his own organization and style.

 

[Chris Parker]

I imagine @Chris Parker could provide some enlightenment here.

Hmm?

Oh, okay...

James Rosenbach's history is highly entwined with that of Robert Bussey, one of the early "pioneers" of ninjutsu/Bujinkan in the US... although Bussey himself himself often went to pains (later) to state that that was more to do with timing than anything like his experience in that art...

As Tony said, Bussey was one of the early US guys to follow Hayes to Noda and train (briefly) with Hatsumi... but before that, he had trained for a number of years in a form of TKD, and, at the age of 16, had opened his first school (in 1977). As he was too young to legally run a business, his main training partner, being a few years older, had the school in his name... that being James Rosenbach. When Bussey then added the early Bujinkan methods to his approach, James went along with that as well (one of the sources of controversy with Bussey is that he always combined and integrated a range of various skills, combining the Bujinkan approach with the high kicking of TKD, and so on, rather than actually teaching any of the systems "purely" themselves). A number of years into his Bujinkan training, Bussey decided to not continue with the organisation, instead to create his own modernised form of the teachings, again with combining everything Bussey had done, and continued to develop and add.

Bussey's approach had him labelled the "King of Combat" in the media... a title earned through his severe training methods and dedication, his integration of so many disparate methods, and his innovation in creating new training methods and approaches. He named this approach "RBWI", or "Robert Bussey's Warrior International", which continued to grow through the late 80's and early/mid-90's, until Bussey, seemingly at the height of popularity for his schools, decided practically overnight to dissolve the organisation. He would then go on to found Robert Bussey Combatives, and today teaches to select groups, while overseeing his organisation of black belt instructors.

Rosenbach would also go on (when Bussey retired from public teaching) to continue the legacy he gained from Bussey, establishing the mentioned RWTB (Rosenbach Warrior Training Branches), which this thread is about. All in all, Rosenbach has over 40 years experience training and teaching an eclectic mix of Korean, Japanese, Filipino, Brazilian, proto-MMA, and other methods. There is a solid realistic basis to much of it, through the research and training of Rosenbach and Bussey together, with one of the early approaches to what we now refer to as Reality Based training.

 

[Tez3]

Thank you, Chris. Hope you are enjoying the Games!

There you go, people, info you can trust.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Hmm?

Oh, okay...

James Rosenbach's history is highly entwined with that of Robert Bussey, one of the early "pioneers" of ninjutsu/Bujinkan in the US... although Bussey himself himself often went to pains (later) to state that that was more to do with timing than anything like his experience in that art...

As Tony said, Bussey was one of the early US guys to follow Hayes to Noda and train (briefly) with Hatsumi... but before that, he had trained for a number of years in a form of TKD, and, at the age of 16, had opened his first school (in 1977). As he was too young to legally run a business, his main training partner, being a few years older, had the school in his name... that being James Rosenbach. When Bussey then added the early Bujinkan methods to his approach, James went along with that as well (one of the sources of controversy with Bussey is that he always combined and integrated a range of various skills, combining the Bujinkan approach with the high kicking of TKD, and so on, rather than actually teaching any of the systems "purely" themselves). A number of years into his Bujinkan training, Bussey decided to not continue with the organisation, instead to create his own modernised form of the teachings, again with combining everything Bussey had done, and continued to develop and add.

Bussey's approach had him labelled the "King of Combat" in the media... a title earned through his severe training methods and dedication, his integration of so many disparate methods, and his innovation in creating new training methods and approaches. He named this approach "RBWI", or "Robert Bussey's Warrior International", which continued to grow through the late 80's and early/mid-90's, until Bussey, seemingly at the height of popularity for his schools, decided practically overnight to dissolve the organisation. He would then go on to found Robert Bussey Combatives, and today teaches to select groups, while overseeing his organisation of black belt instructors.

Rosenbach would also go on (when Bussey retired from public teaching) to continue the legacy he gained from Bussey, establishing the mentioned RWTB (Rosenbach Warrior Training Branches), which this thread is about. All in all, Rosenbach has over 40 years experience training and teaching an eclectic mix of Korean, Japanese, Filipino, Brazilian, proto-MMA, and other methods. There is a solid realistic basis to much of it, through the research and training of Rosenbach and Bussey together, with one of the early approaches to what we now refer to as Reality Based training.

Chris, it's unusual for you to give such a positive review to someone who combines techniques from styles that are based on drastically different body mechanics and tactical principles, such as TKD and Bujinkan Taijutsu. Do you feel that Bussey did a better job than most in finding some set of unifying principles to make those techniques work well together? If so, do you have any insights on how he did so?

 

[Tez3]

Chris, it's unusual for you to give such a positive review to someone who combines techniques from styles that are based on drastically different body mechanics and tactical principles...........,

He could be in an exceedingly good mood because Oz is leading in the medals table in CG or has watched the Aussie girls netball team who are horribly good, more likely though the Aussie girls beach volleyball team.......

 

[Balrog]

Okay, so this guy claims he has:

• Instructor ranking from the ATA (American Taekwondo Association) - this is a real Taekwondo organization/franchise program based in the US, this is probably legit.

<nitpick> ATA is not a franchise sysstem </nitpick>

Having said that - I'm not familiar with Mr. Rosenbach. He seems to have left ATA while I was still coming up through the colored belt ranks, or before.

 

[Chris Parker]

Chris, it's unusual for you to give such a positive review to someone who combines techniques from styles that are based on drastically different body mechanics and tactical principles, such as TKD and Bujinkan Taijutsu. Do you feel that Bussey did a better job than most in finding some set of unifying principles to make those techniques work well together? If so, do you have any insights on how he did so?

Now, Tony, I complete refute and implication that I am "positive" in any way... ha!

The only times it can work is when there is a solid base used to consistently support the various ideas... with Bussey, the basis is actually his KMA arts, not his Bujinkan training... with a personal emphasis of his own experience and training concepts (leading to wider and deeper stances, more akin to wrestling than anything in his KMA methods, modern striking approaches and so on). A similar successful "melding" is found in much of MMA... despite protestations, it is really a congruent and coherent training methodology itself... which is what Bussey was attempting (quite successfully) in a different context some 10-15 years earlier...

He could be in an exceedingly good mood because Oz is leading in the medals table in CG or has watched the Aussie girls netball team who are horribly good, more likely though the Aussie girls beach volleyball team.......

Ha... no....

 

[tlhfirelion]

I was away for a few days and come back to some very in depth and helpful replies. Thank you very much for the feedback everyone. I've not moved yet so I can't go to a class, I think I need to read up more on the various founding styles RWTB is based of off. I don't have the time, or frankly the desire to learn anything complex, nor am I looking to compete in any tournaments. I don't care about my best or ranking or anything of that sort, I'm simply wanting to learn or add on to a skill set for self defense and neutralization of an attacker. Thats what I appreciated about Krav Maga, efficient, brutal, quickly learned, no fluff. Now Krav has it's weaknesses, mainly the ground game so I don' know if this new school in my area would be of benefit there. I am unfamiliar with Ninjitsu,Bujinkan Taijutsu, TKD (Taikwondo?) , etc. I'm in my 40's so no flying kicks for me. lol I wish I had access to a BJJ program as I suspect that would complement Krav well, but it doesn't appear I will. Thanks again for the feedback everyone, it's very helpful as I try to find my new martial arts home.