What is handgun competency to you

Discussion in 'General Weapons Discussion' started by Runs With Fire, Feb 27, 2018.

  1. Runs With Fire

    Runs With Fire Black Belt

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    My cpl class competency test, at the end of the course, is to fire two magazines or ten rounds in a seven inch circle at fifteen yards in something like fifteen seconds (forgot exactly how much). I'll accept that as basic accuracy;. Nothing to write home to mom about, but a good starting point.
    I couldn't hit a three foot cardboard box at twenty yards when I first used a pistol (Glock 20), that range day was a humbling and expensive disappointment. On an average day, I'll hit my 4" spinning target fairly consistently at 20 yards. My wife is a bit behind me but we work on it. I plan on hunting whitetail with my glock this year. I struggle to have a 12" group at 50 yards. I'm still working on it.
     
  2. CB Jones

    CB Jones Senior Master

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    Competent—-you safely draw and fire the weapon and hit a silhouette within 15 yards every time.

    Also can you safely load and unload the weapon.
     
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  3. Runs With Fire

    Runs With Fire Black Belt

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    Sounds practical to me.
     
  4. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

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    I'd agree this is one measure of minimum competency. Not one used in any CCW class I've ever seen (the liability for drawing from a holster apparently is too much for their insurance), unfortunately.
     
  5. lklawson

    lklawson Senior Master

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    There are hundreds of different, competing, "competency" "standards" out there. Every state has a State Police handgun standard and many independent police departments have a different standard. And some states have a different standard for Security Guards. And most of the big name instructors/schools have one or more differing sets of standards. Often these schools will have several standards of incrementally increasing difficulty.

    The whole idea of "minimum standards" is receiving a lot of attention in the firearms community now.

    Here are some links with discussions on what constitutes standards and some links with many of those standards, including some with incrementally increasing standards (NRA Winchester Marksmanship for one).

    Handgun World Podcast – top 10 drills, plus 2
    Minimum Competency for Defensive Pistol
    Minimum standards – functional vs. legal
    minimum competency | Stuff From Hsoi
    NRA Explore | Marksmanship Qualification Program
    NRA Explore | Courses of Fire
    http://www.handgunlaw.us/documents/HandgunStandards1.pdf
    http://www.handgunlaw.us/documents/HandgunStandards2.pdf
    http://www.handgunlaw.us/documents/HandgunStandards3.pdf
    http://www.handgunlaw.us/documents/HandgunStandards4.pdf

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
     
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  6. wab25

    wab25 Purple Belt

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    I believe any minimum competency standard should include an awareness of what is "down range."

    1. Can you clearly identify who or what your target is?
    2. What is between your gun and the target?
    3. What is between your target and where the bullet stops?
    4. What are you going to hit when you miss the target completely?
     
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  7. Buka

    Buka Grandmaster

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    I think it's going to be different to different people. And different to the same person as they gain experience. I think your competency level can also vary with each of your firearms, if you have more than one firearm that is.

    To me, it entails more than it might for others. It entails retaining your weapon in close quarters when someone is on you, and not because someone told you how to do that. Drawing under adverse and emergency conditions. Being smooth. Being smooth is huge, it will save you time, maybe save your life.

    Being aware of everything around you when drawing. Being aware of target background, have to see it, notice it, process it.. as your drawing, not when you start firing. You have to have your mind locked on the constant mantra of front sight, front sight, front sight.

    And always keep in mind one very important thing - if you carry, every single place you go - there is going to be at least one firearm present.

    Every single place you go.
     
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  8. Kong Soo Do

    Kong Soo Do IKSDA Director

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    On the side I teach CCW courses. My course is about 20 hours of class and practicals before at least one ranges session. The basics I cover for competency are:

    • Applicable carry laws.
    • Nomenclature.
    • Official statistics (FBI, CDC etc) on defensive shootings.
    • Familiarization with their person firearm.
    • Safety loading and unloading the firearm.
    • Malfunction and clearance drills.
    • Reloading and tactical reloading.
    • One-handed reloading and malfunction drills with either hand.
    • Shooting with either hand.
    • Weapon retention.
    • Specific on-range drills.
    I'll include other specifics if necessary such as topics on long gun.
     
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  9. Kong Soo Do

    Kong Soo Do IKSDA Director

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    I should add, in addition to being a State Certified Police Firearms Instructor I am also an Israeli Shooting Instructor. If the student wishes to learn Israeli Carry i.e. full magazine with empty chamber, I am qualified to teach that.

    If they are using a revolver I am qualified to teach that also.
     
  10. CB Jones

    CB Jones Senior Master

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    I like the Point shooting but not big on carrying with an empty chamber.
     
  11. Dirty Dog

    Dirty Dog MT Senior Moderator Staff Member

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    This pretty well sums up my opinion on Israeli carry...

     
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  12. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

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    I love that guy. I'm going to have to watch more of his videos. Now I know how I'm going to avoid working today.

    EDIT: All of my weapon defense training from now on will defend against the "fast stroll" attacker.
     
  13. Kong Soo Do

    Kong Soo Do IKSDA Director

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    Israeli carry is fast, effective and combat proven. As a methodology of training, I've found that those that are proficient are vastly better trained than those that typically choose to carry with one in the chamber. There are exceptions of course, but in general I've found this to be the case the vast majority of the time. This is because of the overall material included in the method (some of which I've detailed in my first post). While I like Yankee Marshall, he is not the source I would use for a qualified opinion on IC. That would be like asking someone that is somewhat familiar with knives to explain open heart surgery. In other words, he isn't qualified to have an opinion on the subject because he isn't familiar nor proficient in the method. Sure he (or anyone) is entitled to their opinion. But unless they've properly trained and have experience that opinion is fairly meaningless. And unfortunately those that are ignorant of the methodology often spout things that aren't factual.

    I've lived in the Middle East and have family that still live there and serve or have served in the IDF. They would run circles around most that carry in this country because of the totality of the methodology of training.

    Some of the arguments:

    • It's slower than chambered carry. Not if you're proficient and properly trained.
    • You need both hands. No, you don't. And to be honest, if you aren't proficient in how to reload or clear malfunctions using only one hand then you are kidding yourself about your level of training or preparedness in a real world threat situation. And I typically find that to be the case. A person buys a firearm and may even have been around firearms all their life. They may even have a bunch of firearms. They go to the range (static and controlled environment that in no way simulates combat shooting) and shoot for a good group. Yet they've never practiced one-handed or with either strong or support hand. They shoot from standing rather than prone, on their back, on their side, or any number of positions that real life can require. Most don't know how to clear a malfunction much less know how to do so with one hand. Most shoot on that static range rather than under duress and adrenaline dump in combat conditions. And they build themselves a false sense of security. IC on the other hand is pure combat shooting that goes beyond empty chamber. It addresses all of these topics and more.
    • You can't fight H2H using this method. Yes, you can.

    As part of my training to become an instructor I had to pick up my partner in a fireman's carry (as though he was wounded and unconscious). I then had to run to cover while drawing from concealment, chambering a round one-handed and engage three threats live fire. Another drill was fighting off an attacker from the rear while chambering one-handed and engaging threats to the front live fire. In timed drills I was maybe 2/10ths of a second slower drawing from cover, chambering and firing one round on target as opposed to simply drawing and firing one round on target. 2/10ths of a second isn't a time lag that is of any concern in the real world. And of course IC is inherently safer when reholstering as well as weapon retention.

    The video in the first post of this link is a fair representation.

    Israeli Carry
     
  14. Dirty Dog

    Dirty Dog MT Senior Moderator Staff Member

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    No. You cannot change the laws of physics. Israeli carry cannot be as fast as carrying with one in the chamber. It is impossible. How proficient you are has nothing to do with it. Draw, aim, fire will always be faster than draw, load, aim, fire.
     
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  15. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

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    Wait, how are you getting back to condition 3 before reholstering, when your magazine isn't empty? I'm familiar with (but not trained) in most of the other concepts and tactics you mention, but this one has me scratching my head.
     
  16. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

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    At the very least, it's more complex.
     
  17. CB Jones

    CB Jones Senior Master

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    Just curious....what are your qualifications?

    You stated your a State certified police firearms instructor.....do you work for an agency as a firearms instructor?
     
  18. CB Jones

    CB Jones Senior Master

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    That is one of the things I dislike like the most about it.

    When your life is on the line the simplest method is the best.
     
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  19. Kong Soo Do

    Kong Soo Do IKSDA Director

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    As I stated above, the differential in time in inconsequential. We are talking a couple/few tenths of a second if/when comparing two individuals that are equally trained. While a time differential of a full second 'may' be a factor, tenths of a second aren't. And to expand further, a person proficient in IC on average is going to be much better trained than someone that isn't. So yes, someone that is highly trained and proficient can be faster than someone that isn't trained to that level. I am not Superman, but I am highly trained in this method. Quite a bit of the time I can draw, chamber and fire faster than the guy next to me that isn't trained as extensively. Again and to be clear, that isn't a boast. Simply that because I'm an instructor in this method I take it seriously enough to be as proficient as I can possibly be. The masses that, while somewhat proficient with a firearm, simply aren't highly trained with one.

    And to be clear again, one does not have to be a gun-ninja in order to effect self defense. My points above are that most don't fully understand what they should know and if they are fortunate enough to defend themselves without Mr. Murphy showing up they were more lucky than they were skilled. While I'll take all the luck I can get, I don't want to depend on it should the gun malfunction or I find myself in other than a standing position or I find myself having to do one-handed manipulations.

    Let me clarify, not every draw necessitates the gun firing. I'm referring to drawing the weapon administratively such as doing a check or placing the firearm in storage and then retrieving it. Although not a daily occurrence (I hope) I've seen people draw their gun (for whatever reason such as to place in or take out of a locker) and drop it. Although a modern firearm should have a drop safety, it is something I'd rather not rely on.
     
  20. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

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    That makes sense.

    As to your above point, that's an advantage of someone being trained more, rather than an advantage of IC. I prefer not to confound the two. Just because the average IC user is more trained than the average carrier, that is not really an argument for or against either - rather, it's an argument for training. Personally, I'd rather be highly trained in a slightly more complex method than untrained in a really simple method. But that says nothing about the value of either method; I'd just rather be highly trained than untrained.
     
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