What does Taekwondo have that Muay Thai does not?

Discussion in 'Tae-Kwon-Do' started by Marnetmar, Jan 3, 2018.

  1. Gwai Lo Dan

    Gwai Lo Dan 2nd Black Belt

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    Personally I was thinking of the stance at the end of taegeuk 5 as an example.

    I'm not saying a backfist to the face wouldn't hurt, but IMO there are better choices then ending up with your legs crossed in front of an opponent.

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  2. DaveB

    DaveB Master Black Belt

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    That's what happens when you grab random moves out of context from karate kata to make your forms.
     
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  3. kempodisciple

    kempodisciple Senior Master

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    Except the 't stance' can be fairly useful as transitioning from one stance to another (not sure as a backfist though). The stance is good, that one particular application may not be realistic.
     
  4. skribs

    skribs Master of Arts

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    My Taekwondo school uses traditional forms compared to what the Kukkiwon uses. We still do Koryo Hyung, Keumgang Hyung, etc. But we also learn "Koryo Il Jang" and "Keumgang Il Jang" (and I expect after my 3rd Dan I will learn Taebaek Il Jang). In Keumgang Il Jang, we have this technique, the crossing stance with a backfist, which we immediately step back in the next step. It's not an ending point.

    Or, it can be used as in a step-behind side kick, or used for a spinning backfist or spinning chop.

    The "unrealistic forms" play are important for other reasons:

    1. Building strength and balance in the legs.
    2. Because people tend to regress under stress, if you have exaggerated stances in your kata, you will have normal stances in practice
    3. Deeper stances become important for our self defense, particularly anything involve throws or standing joint-breaks
    4. My Master explained that he prefers the deeper stances from his experience in Korean Special Forces, where in a deeper stance you can change levels up or down, but in a lighter stance you can only go down
    With that said, in our sparring club, my Master tells people NOT to use the deeper stances, and instead teaches the more shallow stances that you see in "modern" arts, because the emphasis on Taekwondo sparring is speed, not power. So we are taught both the deeper, more traditional stances, in addition to the sport stances.
     
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  5. TrueJim

    TrueJim Master Black Belt

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    I'm not saying this is practical, and I'm sure most people here already know this, but the cross stance at the end of T5 supposes that you've stomped on the opponent's foot with your lead foot to trap your opponent's foot, while delivering the backfist strike. That's why your lead foot is angled, so that it will have landed across your opponent's foot. I'm not saying that this is a GOOD reason to end in a cross stance, only that it is the intended explanation.

    But I certainly agree with the larger principle that this would seem an odd way to end a fight!
     
  6. Gwai Lo Dan

    Gwai Lo Dan 2nd Black Belt

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    You would have to be confident that that's the end! :)

    As a tkd yellow belt, I attended my friend's kung fu class. They did a similar move to the ending of taeguk 5, but the stance was much lower and the legs more crossed, with the strike being to the groin. Even as a beginner, I had to ask, "would you ever use this?".

    IMO, "what does tkd have that MT doesn't?" - I would say artistic moves that may not be the most practical.
     
  7. TrueJim

    TrueJim Master Black Belt

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    Interesting! What are Koryo Il Jang, Keumgang Il Jang, etc.? I have never seen these. Do you have videos of these?

    [​IMG]
     
  8. skribs

    skribs Master of Arts

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    Unfortunately not. My Master doesn't want our curriculum circulating the internet, which is why I've been very coy with my answers in previous threads as well.
     
  9. Andrew Green

    Andrew Green Grandmaster

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    All this and no one has stated the obvious. It's a Olympic sport, and it's a lot more kid-friendly.

    That's a pretty big deal.

    Every area is different, but here even getting Muay Thai competition sanctioned at amateur or professional level is a challenge. On the other hand TKD falls under the provincial sports organization which means super easy to sanction, really cheap insurance, funding available for low income people and not for profit clubs.
     
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  10. TrueJim

    TrueJim Master Black Belt

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    I've seen that approach before. I respect it, but I've never understood it. What's the worst-case scenario, that some competing school would use your poomsae? First of all, why would they (it's not like they could use them in tournaments)? And secondly, even if they did use them, what would be the harm?

    Our kwanjangnim has the opposite philosophy: he has me put our entire curriculum online: our basic forms, our kicking combinations, our breaking requirements, etc. Its all on our website and our YouTube channel. If some other school wants to copy our stuff, more power to them -- our value proposition is how well we teach the curriculum, not the curriculum itself. Making it all transparent just helps our students and parents practice more at home.

    But certainly there are plenty of schools that lock their curriculum behind a password-protected, members-only website. Personally, I don't see the advantage of this.
    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
     
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  11. skribs

    skribs Master of Arts

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    A big part of it is protection of copyright. A lot of our curriculum is his material, and if you don't work to protect your copyright then its hard to protect it in the future.

    I think another piece is the fear that students would try to use the videos instead of coming into class.

    Personally, I'm with you. I'd want everything on YouTube, or at least behind a password-protected SharePoint. But it's not my material, so it's not my call to make.
     
  12. Rough Rider

    Rough Rider Green Belt

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    I agree with him on this. I have a binder full of my school's techniques that I've been compiling for several years. Much of the information I hand-wrote in a notebook as I learned and later typed up on the computer to make it neater. Other items are photo-copies from one of the senior instructors' book. He told me that the school used to issue training manuals to students, but, like you suggest, many of them used the book as a substitute for class. He gives me a few pages at a time as I work through the curriculum. Keeping this in mind, I'm now careful about sharing copies of my book. What I do is encourage new students to take their own notes and build their own book. Information is retained much more effectively that way.
     
  13. Rough Rider

    Rough Rider Green Belt

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    I've been learning a form called "Original Koryo" (on my own; my school doesn't teach it). You can find it on youtube. Is this the same form as "Koryo Il Jang?"
     
  14. skribs

    skribs Master of Arts

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    No. The first half of our Koryo Il Jang is pretty similar to Koryo Hyung, like 85% the same, it's the back half that's completely different.

    Keumgang Il Jang begins and ends 95% the same, but there's a lot added in the middle.
     

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