What Do You Think Are The Most Effective Karate Styles?

[Charlemagne]

i'd say goju ryu because it includes ground fighting...

I've seen others, such as Ian Abernathy, make the claim that Okinawan Karate included ground fighting, but I have never seen a shred of evidence. Most of the long time traditional Karate practitioners that I know of completely discount that claim. If you have evidence of such a thing, I would be interested in seeing it.

 

[TimoS]

From the beginning, karate was never meant to be locked into styles. That's a 20th century idea that came about when masters like Itosu wanted to make karate appealing to the Japanese public

Well, yes and no. Back in the days of let's say Itosu, Kyan and others, there already kind of were styles. They were just whatever each master happened to teach and how he did the kata he was taught and not organised into styles and schools. For example, Kyan and Chibana were (kind of) contemporaries, but their karate was very different from each other, which isn't that hard to understand, after all, they had different teachers. And as for the travelling and learning from each other, sure, that happened, but probably only within a limited area. The travelling back in e.g. early 20th century between towns/villages wasn't that easy, so they most likely trained mainly with those who happened to live relatively close. This, IMO, is also evidenced by the fact that almost none of the kata of what became Goju ryu can be seen in what became Shorin ryu and vice versa.

 

[Tez3]

I've seen others, such as Ian Abernathy, make the claim that Okinawan Karate included ground fighting, but I have never seen a shred of evidence. Most of the long time traditional Karate practitioners that I know of completely discount that claim. If you have evidence of such a thing, I would be interested in seeing it.

You say Iain is 'claiming' karate included ground fighting, why don't you read up his proof? he has plenty of it. Then try training with him rather than sneering.
Just because some people discount it doesn't mean they are correct.

 

[Charlemagne]

You say Iain is 'claiming' karate included ground fighting, why don't you read up his proof? he has plenty of it. Then try training with him rather than sneering.
Just because some people discount it doesn't mean they are correct.

I've read Ian's article. And yes, he is claiming it. Others discount this claim. It is not an insult for me to say that. He might be right, and he might be wrong. I honestly do not know. Just because he claims it does not mean he is correct either.

In addition, I didn't sneer. I invited the person to whom I responded to share any evidence he might have, and stated honestly that I would be interested in seeing it. I was hopeful that the person I responded to might have something that I wasn't aware of.

 

[Tez3]

I've read Ian's article

Article, singular? he has written more than one article on it. Instead of asking someone else to respond why don't you ask Iain himself.? this information is freely available on his website where his other articles are btw. He also responds on his forum.
E-Mail: [email protected]
Mail: Iain Abernethy Ltd, PO Box 38, Cockermouth, Cumbria, CA13 0GS, United Kingdom
Telephone: UK: 01900829406 / International: +441900829406

As for not sneering this would indicate otherwise.

but I have never seen a shred of evidence.

 

[Charlemagne]

Article, singular? he has written more than one article on it. Instead of asking someone else to respond why don't you ask Iain himself.? this information is freely available on his website where his other articles are btw. He also responds on his forum.
E-Mail: [email protected]
Mail: Iain Abernethy Ltd, PO Box 38, Cockermouth, Cumbria, CA13 0GS, United Kingdom
Telephone: UK: 01900829406 / International: +441900829406

I asked the person who made the post. That is kind of how forums work.

As for not sneering this would indicate otherwise.

That was not sneering, that was a statement that I have not seen any evidence.

 

[Tez3]

I asked the person who made the post. That is kind of how forums work

That was not sneering, that was a statement that I have not seen any evidence.

'Not a shred of evidence' implies you think someone is lying , otherwise you would have just said no evidence'

Strange that you want someone else to answer a question that can best be answered by Iain himself though. As you challenged Iain's statements it would be logical to want an answer from the horse's mouth as it were. Of course if he proved you wrong that wouldn't be too good.

 

[Charlemagne]

'Not a shred of evidence' implies you think someone is lying , otherwise you would have just said no evidence'

I said that I had not seen a shred of evidence, not that it does not exist. There is a difference. That is why I asked the person who I responded to to share anything he might have.

As for the rest, I recognize that things don't always come across clearly in conversations online due to a lack of nonverbal cues, but you might try letting me tell you what I meant by what I said, rather than you telling me.

Strange that you want someone else to answer a question that can best be answered by Iain himself though. As you challenged Iain's statements it would be logical to want an answer from the horse's mouth as it were. Of course if he proved you wrong that wouldn't be too good.

No, it isn't strange. I responded to someone on a forum. There is nothing strange about that at all. In addition, there is noting to prove me wrong about. At no time did I say that Karate did not include ground fighting, and I did not challenge Iain's statements on anything. I said that I had not seen evidence of it, and that learned Karateka that I know dispute the claim. I've already admitted that I honestly do not know the answer. If Iain want's to come here and chime in, I welcome it. If not, perhaps the person who I actually responded to will share something.

 

[Buka]

To the OP's question, does "effective" refer to fighting? if so, I imagine it would be a Karate style that fights.

Does "effective" refer to self defense? If so, I imagine it would be a Karate style that trains self defense.

Easy, peasy, Japanesy.

 

[Tez3]

No, it isn't strange. I responded to someone on a forum.

and you will wait a very long time for that answer as he has very particular views on martial arts at the best of times. As you say it's a forum and everyone can answer your post if they wish, this thread started 12 years ago and has been resurrected long after it ran out of things to say.

 

[Charlemagne]

and you will wait a very long time for that answer as he has very particular views on martial arts at the best of times. As you say it's a forum and everyone can answer your post if they wish, this thread started 12 years ago and has been resurrected long after it ran out of things to say.

He can respond, or not, as he likes. As for the rest, I never said that someone else could not respond to my post. And I can read the date just like you, so I am aware that the thread was resurrected.

 

[Tez3]

He can respond, or not, as he likes. As for the rest, I never said that someone else could not respond to my post. And I can read the date just like you, so I am aware that the thread was resurrected.

You didn't seem to like that I replied though telling me it was a response for one poster. You didn't mention which one of Iain's articles you had read, he's written many and a book on groundwork/grappling/throws etc in karate and if you take the time to look at his videos and podcast of his Bunkai you will see what he is saying. Many instructors even senior ones believe kata is only done for it's own sake not for the Bunkai it contains, so for them there is nothing else in kata.

 

[Tames D]

You didn't seem to like that I replied though telling me it was a response for one poster. You didn't mention which one of Iain's articles you had read, he's written many and a book on groundwork/grappling/throws etc in karate and if you take the time to look at his videos and podcast of his Bunkai you will see what he is saying. Many instructors even senior ones believe kata is only done for it's own sake not for the Bunkai it contains, so for them there is nothing else in kata.

Give it a rest. Stop badgering him.

 

[Charlemagne]

You didn't seem to like that I replied though telling me it was a response for one poster.

Again, that is not what I said. When you asked me to track down Iain or to go train with him, I responded that I inquired from the person that made the comment on the forum in the hopes that he would provide information since he had made the claim. At no time did I take issue with your replying to my post. I took issue with your characterization of what I said, and the manner in which you said it.

 

[Tez3]

You see, there it is again 'the claim', I took issue with the way you worded it before making it seem as if Iain was not telling the truth, it may not be what you want to hear but he is a genuine scholar and martial artist who spends a tremendous amount of time and work on what he does, to hear it reduced in the way you did does him a huge disservice whether to not you agree with him and it is an agreement or not, it isn't whether he's telling the truth or 'making claims'. When people think someone isn't telling the truth they invariable say that person is 'making claims', they don't say 'in his opinion', then you compound it by saying there's not a shred of evidence when many others other than Iain have written about grappling/wresting/groundwork in karate. Even Funakoshi has written about grappling in karate. Look too at Lawrence Kane and Kris Wilder's writing and books on kata.

Ps it's Abernethy.

 

[Charlemagne]

You see, there it is again 'the claim', I took issue with the way you worded it before making it seem as if Iain was not telling the truth...

Again, you are not reading what I said, you are reading what you want to see and projecting that on me. I never implied that he did not tell the truth. I have admitted freely and multiple times that I honestly do not know the answer to the question. However, it is possible to be wrong about something, and not tell a lie in the process. People of good will can make mistakes and disagree, and be honest the entire time while doing so.

You could have been helpful and posted material that contains actual evidence at any time, but you have chosen not to do so. I have tried being reasonable with you and only attack your argument rather than you as a person. That has obviously not worked. As such, you have the honor of being the first person in a very long time on any forum to be placed on my ignore list.

You can have the last word. Write whatever response back you like. I won't see it.

So much for the "friendly martial arts forum".

 

[Tez3]

Oh dear, how sad, never mind.

 

[JR 137]

Again, you are not reading what I said, you are reading what you want to see and projecting that on me. I never implied that he did not tell the truth. I have admitted freely and multiple times that I honestly do not know the answer to the question. However, it is possible to be wrong about something, and not tell a lie in the process. People of good will can make mistakes and disagree, and be honest the entire time while doing so.

You could have been helpful and posted material that contains actual evidence at any time, but you have chosen not to do so. I have tried being reasonable with you and only attack your argument rather than you as a person. That has obviously not worked. As such, you have the honor of being the first person in a very long time on any forum to be placed on my ignore list.

You can have the last word. Write whatever response back you like. I won't see it.

So much for the "friendly martial arts forum".

When dealing with people like this, I'm reminded of a quote I once saw in a pub I used to frequent...

I never make the mistake of arguing with people for whose opinions I have no respect.
- Edward Gibbon

It puts things into perspective for me.

 

[Tez3]

When dealing with people like this, I'm reminded of a quote I once saw in a pub I used to frequent...

I never make the mistake of arguing with people for whose opinions I have no respect.
- Edward Gibbon

It puts things into perspective for me.

and I would remind you that when people speak of instructors etc with disrespect here that they are often people instructors and personal friends, loyalty means passionate responses and if people are feeling 'hurt' by that perhaps they should phrase their comments less contentiously/ambiguously.

 

[Tames D]

He wa

and I would remind you that when people speak of instructors etc with disrespect here that they are often people instructors and personal friends, loyalty means passionate responses and if people are feeling 'hurt' by that perhaps they should phrase their comments less contentiously/ambiguously.

He was never disrespectful. You however...