What do you get out of boxing that you don't out of kickboxing or muay thai?

Discussion in 'Boxing/Kickboxing' started by skribs, Sep 25, 2018.

  1. skribs

    skribs Senior Master

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    Taekwondoist here. I'm letting my mind wander over to arts that focus more on the fists than on the feet. From the outside looking in, it looks like boxing is the most restrictive and Muay Thai is the least restrictive, with kickboxing in the middle. (This is because Boxing is restricted to hands, kickboxing to hands and feet, and muay thai lets you clinch, use knees and elbows).

    From the perspective of someone building up their martial arts skills, what does someone get out of choosing to go with boxing over the more open sports of kickboxing or muay thai? Or is it simply that you get to focus more on punching?
     
  2. Tez3

    Tez3 Sr. Grandmaster

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    You get more concussions.
     
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  3. Buka

    Buka Grandmaster

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    Boxing is a very specialized, limited art. Consider - yeah, sure, we all train either hand/foot forward or back. Boxers don't. And forget the exceptions, although we would never discount them, we are not addressing them right now. Boxers do not train with either hand/foot forward. They are one sided, and, yes, we all know the the guy who likes to switch......but he's a Martial Artist who also happens to box, he's not a boxer.

    Boxing has the jab, the cross, the hook and the uppercut. That's it, that's the list. Everything else is just semantics. Shovel hooks, bolos and various tweaks of the Holy Four are just that, tweaks. Thinking about a fighter with only four techniques, and those techniques are techniques that YOU KNOW.....blows my mind.

    But, oh man, has boxing got the application down to a science. If you're young and plan on spending your whole life in Martial Arts, please spend a couple years in a boxing gym. It will help you in ways you can't even understand yet.
     
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  4. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

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    What do you get ?

    A sport that's honed for"combat" no flim flam, no " what's this technique for ? " half a dozen attacking options that you do over again through you career till you perfact them, being advanced means using basics at high speed in combination not learning another 200 obscure variation but what a boxer develops is movement and that's what's make a then really hard to hit/ defend against.

    Kick boxing should be better all the above plus kicking and knees, but it seems to lack the fluency of boxing, it's as if the present e if kicking has remove some of the effectiveness of punching and chance the movement patterns for the worse!
     
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  5. Danny T

    Danny T Senior Master

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    If you are serious about being proficient with empty hand striking. Spend some serious training time in a boxing gym. Today most all real muay thai training facilities have boxing as a part of their programs.
     
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  6. Tony Dismukes

    Tony Dismukes MT Moderator Staff Member

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    As a general rule, boxers understand footwork and head movement at a higher level than kickboxers. As others have said, they also tend to have mastered the application of their punches more than fighters who have more weapons to train.
     
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  7. skribs

    skribs Senior Master

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    I'd argue that those are the only punching techniques boxing has. They also have a lot of footwork and head movement, which is I guess what I would want.

    And I would be the stubborn guy that goes to a boxing gym and asks to train both sides (because that's how it lines up with my other martial arts training).

    What is a shovel hook or a bolo?

    And is 30 "young"? How about 37 (the age I will probably be when I do pick up another martial art)?
     
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  8. marques

    marques Master Black Belt

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    Better punching, ‘better’ footwork and ‘better’ head movement. It is not unusual having kickboxers and Thai boxers training and competing in boxing. There is something in there.
     
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  9. DaveB

    DaveB Master Black Belt

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    The infinite complexity of the simple.

    I think boxing teaches us how to train for fighting.

    I think the simplicity of the limited move set. Let's you focus on the the intricacies of the game almost from day one.

    I started understanding how to fight when after 3ish years of karate I stopped and asked, "how do I land a simple straight punch". Boxing is essentially that question given form.
     
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  10. skribs

    skribs Senior Master

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    So, I was pretty much rejecting kickboxing as an option. I was thinking I'd either go the route of Muay Thai because it has more techniques available and most we don't drill much in Taekwondo (knees, elbows, and hands) as well as the clinch, or I'd go boxing to focus specifically on my hands. Kickboxing seemed to be in the middle in a bad way.

    I guess the question, then, is what do I want to do? Do I want to focus on all the strikes we don't get to spar with in TKD? Or do I want to focus on the punch itself.

    I'll probably be asking myself this question until I eventually DO pick it up.

    Maybe I'll sign up for a few boxing classes during our breaks from Taekwondo to give myself a little bit of a change in rhythm.
     
  11. kempodisciple

    kempodisciple MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Out of curiosity, why wait another 7 years?
     
  12. pdg

    pdg Senior Master

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    Depends on the teacher.

    While we don't use elbows or knees in sparring, we do train and drill them.

    Clinch not so much, but a little.

    I can definitely see how some (a lot?) places don't though.


    That said, all that is in tkd class as well...
     
  13. skribs

    skribs Senior Master

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    Want to get my 5th degree in TKD before I branch out and pursue other striking training. I simply don't have time in my schedule for another art and that's my priority at the moment. I just got my 3rd degree, and the minimum time is 3 years from 3rd to 4th, and 4 years from 4th to 5th. At that point it's simple math :p

    It might exist in some form in TKD, but not in my curriculum, and not to the degree it is in Muay Thai.

    Let me rephrase - the clinch is not taught at all at my school. The TKD clinch is vastly different from the MT clinch. Elbows and knees are taught, but not drilled, and definitely not sparred.
     
  14. Buka

    Buka Grandmaster

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    A shovel hook is the illegitimate child of a hook and an uppercut. They are wonderful for going to the body. You would love them.

    A bolo is sort of a wind up uppercut.

    Thirty seven is too old to do anything. People should be put out to pasture at that age. They are ancient, like the mountains.
     
  15. skribs

    skribs Senior Master

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    Good to know. When I turn 36 I will start to get my affairs in order.
     
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  16. pdg

    pdg Senior Master

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    Again, it depends on the tkd - then the school - then the teacher.

    Do you not have elbow and knee strikes (combined with grabs/clinches) in your patterns?

    Do you not do patterns against pad holders?

    Do you not have elbows and knees (and grabs) in your set step sparring?


    Oh, and I googled "muay thai clinch" - video results previews all showed wrap the neck, optionally trap one arm, go in with knee, optionally turn for sweep/takedown. Almost exactly like a move sequence in the Toi Gye pattern...

    The bit I will freely agree with is it's certainly not taken to the same level as in MT.
     
  17. kempodisciple

    kempodisciple MT Moderator Staff Member

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    @skribs this is mainly for you, but other kukkiwon tkdists are free to answer me.

    Reading your posts recently, I can't tell if this is your school or kukkiwon TKD in general...but the style doesn't seem to mesh with itself. You have kata and one-steps and techniques that focus on handwork, which is actively under-rewarded in the official style, so the style, and particularly the sparring format, doesn't seem to allow for the transition from form and drill to application. Instead, you are learning application for things (various kicks) that are not officially part of the forms/curriculum. To me that form-drill-application part is the most important, so it's an issue if the style has a disconnect between what it chooses to apply and what it chooses to teach...

    Or am I just totally off base and getting implications from your posts that are not there?
     
  18. skribs

    skribs Senior Master

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    WT TKD sparring rules are very similar to NFL holding rules. You can't grab, you can't wrap your arms around the person. Think of anything you can do in Judo or Wrestling - can't do in TKD. The "clinch" is more like an NFL block, with your hands square to the opponent on their chest to block their movement.

    So there IS a clinch...but it's not the clinch, if that makes sense.

    We use knees and elbows in our step sparring. We don't practice defense against them and we don't generally drill them on a moving target.

    I think it's accurate, to some degree at least. The way I see it, there's the art and demonstration (forms and tricking kicks), the self defense (which comes from forms, but also one-step drills), and sparring (sparring drills and tournaments).

    Each of these are almost their own style. The combat style is very similar to Shotokan Karate, with some of our stuff reminding me of Krav Maga, and some of our more advanced drills a little bit of Wing Chun. The sparring style is unique to TKD as it is almost entirely kicks and focused on points, but any art that has a lot of kicks (kickboxing comes to mind) might be similar. Then there's the trick kicks which are more like Capoiera or Wushu.

    So if you were to take away "Taekwondo", then we would do Karate forms and defense drills, kickboxing sparring, and Wushu demonstration kicks. There is definitely some incongruence there. Most TKD schools, to my knowledge, focus primarily on forms and sparring. (Most TKD people on this site probably go to a school which teaches more, so this site might not give a good demographic representation of TKD schools). While they are more focused than my school, they are still incongruent with each other.

    You can probably see evidence of this in a post I recently made in the TKD forum about how the forms don't teach sparring tactics, and what would a form look like if it taught the techniques and tactics used in TKD sparring? I also have expressed similar thoughts about the new competition forms, which include sparring moves, more traditional punching techniques, and some trick kicks. It's like the form can't decide what it is.

    If you look at the history of Taekwondo (you can get a summary of these from the stickies in the TKD forum) you'll see why this all has happened. Taekwondo's roots in Tang Soo Do and Karate are where the base combat system comes from. TKD's decision to focus on kicks in sparring (since anyone can throw a punch to the head) and the R&D that's gone into that game is why the sparring is the way it is. And the trick kicks are an extension of that focus on kicks, with a different idea in mind - to look cool.

    So I understand why it's branched out the way it has. But you're right, it's gotten to a point where you're learning different things, and for the most part can feel like 2 different arts that you fit into one class, and it can be hard for the students to figure out what type of technique they need for what application.
     
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  19. pdg

    pdg Senior Master

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    A couple of things:

    Thing 1 - My previous posts read like "oh wow, tkd can cover everything" - I do believe it can, but not for everyone.

    If muay thai, boxing (or anything else) looks appealing or otherwise floats your boat, go do it :)


    Thing 2 - I would really like there to be some distinction made when referring to taekwondo and taekwon-do.

    There appear to be many big differences between them, yet they get lumped together because of the name. The art @skribs describes seems fundamentally different to the one I practice.
     
  20. skribs

    skribs Senior Master

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    What is the difference between Taekwondo and Taekwon-do? Or Tae Kwon Do? Which one do YOU do and which one do I do?

    Or is it simply a different organization (i.e. WTF, ITF, ATA, or another off shoot)?
     

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