What can I do to counter him and better handle similar situations in the future

[lavender]

Hi,

Everyone at the school is too busy to discuss this and I want to start preparing to deal with this opponent (and future reactions to similar situations) asap.

I am an adult assistant at this tkd school where there is no class for adults. I haven't gotten to spar much in recent months. Most of the kids are too small and young for me to really spar, and not a real challenge. I have no illusions of grandeur, they just haven't the age and prior experience that I have. Next step for me is black belt, so I don't know what choice I have. So.

Today we had a real team training, finally, and I had trouble with my second opponent. This one boy and his 2 cousins haven't been here long, but this stuff seems to come naturally to them - or they practice together at home. I spy a grass stain on a uniformed knee, so maybe in the back yard or something. The cousins are green belts (belt 3 of 8 before black) and the other boy is one belt higher. That boy hit on a strategy that worked against me. None of the advanced belt kids have really pushed me, but this blue belt is.

I got angry and started reacting to his dancing around and he stayed away from me and kept getting to one side of me with his footwork and scoring the side of my head where I couldn't see it. It wasn't just the scoring that bugged me, it was his grin while he did it. I strongly dislike when a dominant opponent grins like that. I hate seeing it happen to others and I don't like it on my opponent either. I didn't totally loose my head. It was close. Thing is when I loose my cool all skill goes out the window and a good deal of power as well. I don't usually get to kick hard, so my aggressive attempts weren't that hard. These boys can take some hits compared to the other kids. They really whale on each other. Loosing my cool mostly meant I followed him and he kept moving around and away, playing me like a puppet. When one of us really attacked he would move...somehow... and get to my most unguarded side to strike my head. That grin. Ugh. At some point I realized he was deliberately dancing and getting behind me and I slowed my attack and tried to be less reactive and use more footwork. It helped a little, but I don't recall ever dealing with someone using his strategy.

At the end of our turn after the handshake, I went to our largest bag, slammed it once hard as I could with a back punch, went back to my spot and sat fast and hard with an audible thud. Those boys were sitting behind me and I saw them look. I didn't say anything and I focused on being outwardly calm and using my head to think. Not proud of the reaction except the part of controlling my expression after the mini tantrum.

I have to wait until Tuesday night to talk to one of the teachers. The one who taught today is always monopolized by the kids. Sometimes it's hard to relay business matters because of the way they crowd him. I barely had time to set a meeting time with him, certainly not enough to discuss what went wrong and what I should work on, and advice on whatever mental stuff is at work when someone is able to push me. Then there are some counters he mentioned that I could use a quick verbal review of. And some BB testing stuff.

I'm not angry at the kid. More irritated by being a puppet and not being effective in countering him once my head cleared enough to what he was doing. I am glad this happened, actually. That there is a student here that can push me. I have been almost depressed about it, but here's the answer to my prayer. He's good and has a good eye for how sparring works, but I still have more experience. Here's what I needed, a push to improve on. I'll fix my side of it so he has to come up with another strategy. I think it'll do him good to have someone besides his cousins to push back.

In another match today one kid kept striking his opponent's headgear, that boy tried to keep his hands up but he kept getting hit - left right left right. I could see he was upset by that, but in the context (continuous, non-scored, freestyle) it was acceptable and what bothered me more was the striking boy's grin as he did it. Left right left right left right. I remember at my last school 8 years ago there was a black belt teen that I couldn't land anything on and I did get thoroughly peeved at that, but I remember she didn't seem to gloat and certainly never grinned like that. I try to keep that kind of expression with the kids that can't really push my skill. Not a mean or aggressive look, just a focused one.

What to do against a 'dancer?' What do you think he might have been doing to sneak that headshot (I know you weren't there)? What's up with the grinning? Am I overreacting to the grinning? How do I give this kid a run for his money (not revenge, but a challenge to get better)?

 

[ks - learning to fly]

What to do against a 'dancer?' What do you think he might have been doing to sneak that headshot (I know you weren't there)? What's up with the grinning? Am I overreacting to the grinning? How do I give this kid a run for his money (not revenge, but a challenge to get better)?

Found this article online - thought it would help:

#1 What techniques and combinations are you best at delivering? Select a small “toolbox” of techniques and put together a plan for how they should be used.

#2 Work against pads, heavy bags and live sparring partners.

#3 While engaging in live sparring, be careful to watch the habits and movement style of your opponent. Learning how your opponent moves and behaves allows you to select the right tactics for any given opponent

#4 prepare a set of feints and technique combination designed to deceive your opponent. The objective is to draw your opponent out of position, off balance and vulnerable to your decisive blow.

#5 Remember in any good defense is a natural opportunity for offense. Review your strategy and tactics and look for places to take the offense as you complete a defensive movement. Each of the three phases of good defense, avoidance, evasion and interception, give the opportunity to turn the tide of battle.

#6 The rhythm and timing of your movements and techniques should be varied often. By establishing a particular rhythm to your movements and then suddenly changing that rhythm you can cause your opponent to momentarily “freeze”.

I would say the 'grinning' is just some sort of mind game...You focus on keeping your hands up, keep your eye on your opponent, and keeping your cool! If you let your
frustration take over - he's already got you beat - Good Luck!

 

[Gwai Lo Dan]

Reading between the lines, is it fair to say that the kid is significantly quicker than you? Is that due to you carrying extra weight? If so, the biggest issue and solution is to get in shape.

His strategy, if you are a bit bigger, may have been to dance and let you get tired as you throw kicks that he would evade. In so doing, he may have seen you get frustrated and less effective, and it was a joy for him to see his strategy work. Hence the grin.

In the present, if he is quicker than you, I would guess that you should only use your quickest, most energy efficient, and most non-committed techniques. So no back kicks for instance, but lots of turning kicks, and maybe front/push kicks (even without points) to move him and throw him off his plan.

Let me know if my guessing about speed is in the ball park or not.

 

[DennisBreene]

I agree with ks-ltf that the young man got into your head. That's something to work out with your seniors in the school.

On the other hand, I am also interested in strategies to deal with that kind of sparring, if anyone can address it. I had a similar experience while sparing a senior black belt who continually back peddled while circling me (ala Muhammad Ali). I never did figure out how to engage him. Mind blowingly frustrating as he never taught the strategy or it's counter to fellow students. I would encourage you to let your fellow students in on the strategy when you learn it. The school is a learning environment and putting the emphasis on improving the skills of everyone might reduce your momentary frustration.

 

[K-man]

I feel that you have identified an issue that is at the core of every competitive style. There will always be someone better than you, regardless of rank. I remember back in my early days there was a young brown belt guy that ended up winning our local tournament. He beat good black belts all up the line to the final. You might be able to devise a way of matching this young kid but in the end it really doesn't matter. Learning a martial art is much more than winning or losing. As to his grin. Maybe he read you ahead of time. Don't let him under your skin.
:asian:

 

[Earl Weiss]

Are you a WTF - No hands to head style or ITF style?

Don't get sucked into his game- Don't chase him Try to suck him in. One way to do this is to shuffle toward him like you would chase him than slightly shuffle back and see if he moves forward to close the gap. Time your attack for wen he moves forward. Next, don't always initiate and continue forward. Some times fake an attack to draw a counter. Watch foir gaps in the counter and use them.

Next, seek the help of a third party. This might be tough as you described the class makeup. Fighters have coaches who can see things from outside the mix which are tough to see especialy for newer fighters. These coaches can then reccomend tactics.

 

[Thousand Kicks]

First bit of advice. Calm down. Fighting/sparring should not be emotional. As soon as you get mad you aren't focused on what he's doing. You just go into "hulk smash" mode and walk into the same trap over and over.

Second, if your opponent is circling one way or the other try not to follow them. Specifically don't follow their path. In boxing they use the term "cut them off" If they circle to their left, you should step in a straight line to your right. Because you are traveling a shorter distance, it is harder for them to get to your blind spot.

Third, People who move a lot are vulnerable while they move. Each time they step there is a point where they can't really attack because they are in a bad position or a foot is off the ground, etc. Time your attacks in these moments so it's harder for them to react.

Fourth, As Gwai Lo Dan said, use simple techniques. No spin kicks or kicks that require large commited motions. If you use simple fast attacks, it makes it harder for them counter

Lastly, be prepared to miss a lot. By your accounts he is good at his style. Missing a lot of attacks can mess with your mind and you get hesitant about attacking because you don't want to keep missing. Tell yourself in the beginning that you might miss with 3 techniques to land 1. Mix hands and legs for attacks. When you get in pepper him with simple fast combinations. It will not all land, but now the pressure is on him.

Just my 2 cents

 

[Touch Of Death]

Hi,

Everyone at the school is too busy to discuss this and I want to start preparing to deal with this opponent (and future reactions to similar situations) asap.

I am an adult assistant at this tkd school where there is no class for adults. I haven't gotten to spar much in recent months. Most of the kids are too small and young for me to really spar, and not a real challenge. I have no illusions of grandeur, they just haven't the age and prior experience that I have. Next step for me is black belt, so I don't know what choice I have. So.

Today we had a real team training, finally, and I had trouble with my second opponent. This one boy and his 2 cousins haven't been here long, but this stuff seems to come naturally to them - or they practice together at home. I spy a grass stain on a uniformed knee, so maybe in the back yard or something. The cousins are green belts (belt 3 of 8 before black) and the other boy is one belt higher. That boy hit on a strategy that worked against me. None of the advanced belt kids have really pushed me, but this blue belt is.

I got angry and started reacting to his dancing around and he stayed away from me and kept getting to one side of me with his footwork and scoring the side of my head where I couldn't see it. It wasn't just the scoring that bugged me, it was his grin while he did it. I strongly dislike when a dominant opponent grins like that. I hate seeing it happen to others and I don't like it on my opponent either. I didn't totally loose my head. It was close. Thing is when I loose my cool all skill goes out the window and a good deal of power as well. I don't usually get to kick hard, so my aggressive attempts weren't that hard. These boys can take some hits compared to the other kids. They really whale on each other. Loosing my cool mostly meant I followed him and he kept moving around and away, playing me like a puppet. When one of us really attacked he would move...somehow... and get to my most unguarded side to strike my head. That grin. Ugh. At some point I realized he was deliberately dancing and getting behind me and I slowed my attack and tried to be less reactive and use more footwork. It helped a little, but I don't recall ever dealing with someone using his strategy.

At the end of our turn after the handshake, I went to our largest bag, slammed it once hard as I could with a back punch, went back to my spot and sat fast and hard with an audible thud. Those boys were sitting behind me and I saw them look. I didn't say anything and I focused on being outwardly calm and using my head to think. Not proud of the reaction except the part of controlling my expression after the mini tantrum.

I have to wait until Tuesday night to talk to one of the teachers. The one who taught today is always monopolized by the kids. Sometimes it's hard to relay business matters because of the way they crowd him. I barely had time to set a meeting time with him, certainly not enough to discuss what went wrong and what I should work on, and advice on whatever mental stuff is at work when someone is able to push me. Then there are some counters he mentioned that I could use a quick verbal review of. And some BB testing stuff.

I'm not angry at the kid. More irritated by being a puppet and not being effective in countering him once my head cleared enough to what he was doing. I am glad this happened, actually. That there is a student here that can push me. I have been almost depressed about it, but here's the answer to my prayer. He's good and has a good eye for how sparring works, but I still have more experience. Here's what I needed, a push to improve on. I'll fix my side of it so he has to come up with another strategy. I think it'll do him good to have someone besides his cousins to push back.

In another match today one kid kept striking his opponent's headgear, that boy tried to keep his hands up but he kept getting hit - left right left right. I could see he was upset by that, but in the context (continuous, non-scored, freestyle) it was acceptable and what bothered me more was the striking boy's grin as he did it. Left right left right left right. I remember at my last school 8 years ago there was a black belt teen that I couldn't land anything on and I did get thoroughly peeved at that, but I remember she didn't seem to gloat and certainly never grinned like that. I try to keep that kind of expression with the kids that can't really push my skill. Not a mean or aggressive look, just a focused one.

What to do against a 'dancer?' What do you think he might have been doing to sneak that headshot (I know you weren't there)? What's up with the grinning? Am I overreacting to the grinning? How do I give this kid a run for his money (not revenge, but a challenge to get better)?

The only way to beat a prancer, is when you yourself become the dancer.
I use the grin. It is a nasty weapon.

 

[oftheherd1]

Many years ago when I studied TKD, we had a young lad come in who was just incredibly athletic. He could easily score points on students senior to him, including sometimes the brown belts. He also enjoyed that and felt superior by his facial expression. Mr. Rhee finally sparred with him. During the match, Mr. Rhee deployed a side heel hook kick, catching the young man in the solar plexus. We all looked in amazement. We had never seen such a kick, and it happened so fast, we weren't even sure how it was done. The guy had little fight left in him. He also never returned. I always thought we all lost something.

Whatever you do, don't run him or his cousins off with anything you do. Use him to learn. You have physical technique to learn, and self control to learn. Especially at your rank and experience. Don't screw up the opportunity. Do talk to your instructors about both parts of the problem. Don't be afraid to ask him what and how he is doing it. Done sincerely, that will help both him and you.

Good luck.

 

[lavender]

Gwai, the speed part is right. Plus I get tired faster. I'm at least twice as old as him and I was never active as I was growing.
The weight part is a bit off base. I'm 5'6" and about 140, which, while not as light as I could be, still leaves me within the average catagory.

Earl - The teacher that day has WTF background. We were doing continuous sparring without counting points or naming winners or losers. A couple weeks ago we sparred and he wasn't able to push like this. I remember he was talking to the other teacher (w a Jhoon Rhee background) after that class about what he (the kid) saw I was doing and had some idea what to do about it. He's got that over me. I don't see what my opponents are doing. I mean, I see, but I don't understand like he did. I just move and whatever I learned that sunk in deep enough comes out without deliberate thought. It's all I can do to just keep moving and let 'instinct' do the rest. If that makes any sense. It all moves too fast for me, so when I try to think too much energy goes away from instinct and I get worse.

He stays to the outside of the ring and moves as far around the edge as he can. As soon as I go to cut him off he switches direction and gets away again. I wonder how long it takes him to get tired.


oftheherd1 - I have more experience than them, but for all my rank I'm harmless to this kid. Like I said, there aren't many kids at this school that can push me, and I've had to spar way too much with no contact or verrry light contact because the kids are smaller than me, or heavier, or less balanced, etc. It's become a habit even being in my 'hulk smash' mode didn't really break. And as I said, these 3 boys really whale on each other, so what I did is not enough to put them off. He was smart enough to "get my number" without help. I'm not going to tell him what I'm doing if I find how to counter him. I'm sure he'll figure that out too, and it would be a good mental exercise for him. Also, good that he has someone to push him. The kind of stress that strengthens, not the kind that harms. If one of the other kids did that to me I would have been kind of pleased rather than drawn to anger, since it's beyond most of them right now. I would have been the one grinning. Yeah, it's been a while since I've had someone to push me. I was thinking about that during the week prior to the match I wrote about, and how I should not get arrogant or get a big head because of there not being someone to challenge me. Anyway, I certainly wouldn't want to run someone off, but I don't think I could run this kid off. Some of the students we have, sure. This one can take what I can dish (which is almost sad...) but overall I'm glad there is someone at this school that can. That still sounds arrogant, but I don't mean it to be!

Touchofdeath - the grin can be a nasty weapon, which is why I refuse to use it. We're practice partners, we're not supposed to be nasty to each other. I am not egotistical enough to use it anyway. If I couldn't back it up that would be crushing. I have no illusions that I'm all that. I'm just a big fish in a rather small pond.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Gwai, the speed part is right. Plus I get tired faster. I'm at least twice as old as him and I was never active as I was growing.
The weight part is a bit off base. I'm 5'6" and about 140, which, while not as light as I could be, still leaves me within the average catagory.

Earl - The teacher that day has WTF background. We were doing continuous sparring without counting points or naming winners or losers. A couple weeks ago we sparred and he wasn't able to push like this. I remember he was talking to the other teacher (w a Jhoon Rhee background) after that class about what he (the kid) saw I was doing and had some idea what to do about it. He's got that over me. I don't see what my opponents are doing. I mean, I see, but I don't understand like he did. I just move and whatever I learned that sunk in deep enough comes out without deliberate thought. It's all I can do to just keep moving and let 'instinct' do the rest. If that makes any sense. It all moves too fast for me, so when I try to think too much energy goes away from instinct and I get worse.

He stays to the outside of the ring and moves as far around the edge as he can. As soon as I go to cut him off he switches direction and gets away again. I wonder how long it takes him to get tired.


oftheherd1 - I have more experience than them, but for all my rank I'm harmless to this kid. Like I said, there aren't many kids at this school that can push me, and I've had to spar way too much with no contact or verrry light contact because the kids are smaller than me, or heavier, or less balanced, etc. It's become a habit even being in my 'hulk smash' mode didn't really break. And as I said, these 3 boys really whale on each other, so what I did is not enough to put them off. He was smart enough to "get my number" without help. I'm not going to tell him what I'm doing if I find how to counter him. I'm sure he'll figure that out too, and it would be a good mental exercise for him. Also, good that he has someone to push him. The kind of stress that strengthens, not the kind that harms. If one of the other kids did that to me I would have been kind of pleased rather than drawn to anger, since it's beyond most of them right now. I would have been the one grinning. Yeah, it's been a while since I've had someone to push me. I was thinking about that during the week prior to the match I wrote about, and how I should not get arrogant or get a big head because of there not being someone to challenge me. Anyway, I certainly wouldn't want to run someone off, but I don't think I could run this kid off. Some of the students we have, sure. This one can take what I can dish (which is almost sad...) but overall I'm glad there is someone at this school that can. That still sounds arrogant, but I don't mean it to be!

Touchofdeath - the grin can be a nasty weapon, which is why I refuse to use it. We're practice partners, we're not supposed to be nasty to each other. I am not egotistical enough to use it anyway. If I couldn't back it up that would be crushing. I have no illusions that I'm all that. I'm just a big fish in a rather small pond.

Well, not defend the grin too much, but it is a mental fitness issue on your part. That kid is doing the right things, and perhaps because his mom taught him to smile instead of being a big frowny face, he doesn't even realize the damge it does. My advice is to let this be a lesson to you, that you let a smirk ruin your whole day. I say fight fire with fire.

 

[CNida]

I can relate somewhat to you problem, though not how you may think.

I have never trained in TKD, but I did dabble in boxing and MMA. The evasive/movement heavy style this kid was using against you is sounding very similar to what I did.

I was never an expert at it, and didn't train in it as long as I could have, but here is my point: I was going in there and sparring with guys who have done it for years and I only had a couple of months under my belt, if even that. I would frustrate the crap out of them. It was what I call a "reactive defense", something that lots of experienced people advise against.

Anyway, I found the achille's heel to that style is someone who plods in on me behind an effective shield, meaning someone who can block well while closing distance and cutting angles to prevent the circling and the backpedalling. Time strike for whenever he is moving towards a particular side, and don't be afraid to take one to give one. I have found that people who use that style will panic when they are being pressed...


____________________________

"Knowledge speaks, but wisdom listens."

 

[lavender]

So the same teacher was there today. When I saw the boy and his cousins come in and the teacher was the only one in the classroom, I took advantage of the time it took them to put their gear on to bring up what was happening Saturday. He worked with me for a few months last year before he had to leave. I was progressing with him, but he said he noticed I lost some of that since he left. The talk was quick, but good.

I joined the class (although it's not my belt group) and after the warmup he called up mr. dancer and a cousin and talked about distances from opponent (staying in close so you're hard to hit, staying out of the zone where you can most easily be hit, and staying further away), specifically why staying far away and moving in circles is not necessarily a good tactic. Hearing him talk and seeing his demonstration, then watching the kids, helped. Then he put me against the other cousin, where I focused on response to circling. For some reason he also was circling similar to the original kid, except he didn't stay as far out. That was good practice. After waiting for the third pair, I was called up with my nemesis

He still tried to circle like before, but I did what I just practiced and I think he was just a bit confused by the change (even after the lesson and demonstration and seeing me do this on his cousin). No grin, so I know it's not that he just usually grins. Definitely wasn't deliberately using the grin as a tactic to get to me.

What I did was feint, stomp, switch - whatever seemed right, but mostly let him come to me before attacking/countering. When he started the circle thing, I'd get him circling the direction I wanted, then let him run into my roundhouse, or do reverse side kick so he ran into my kick. Or I chose the kick based on the direction he was going. Either way it worked on him. He's not some super prodigy, I do have experience he doesn't yet, but I hope he does come up with something else. After I practice the counter on him a more. I have no reason to think I'll stop tkd soon, so I'm sure I'll see someone spar like that again. It was productive for me and he was puzzled without being beat down or anything by me.

I like the way the teacher used my difficulty to base the lesson on. Discrete, no one called out. And the way he had me watch, practice on someone else, and THEN spar the kid that gave me difficulty on Saturday. The boys were given the same information I was, so they were not totally uninformed.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Circling is a good tactic. It was working against you, and consider that no matter how fast you become, there are people with a greater reach advantage; so, footwork is key.
Sean

 

[oftheherd1]

So the same teacher was there today. When I saw the boy and his cousins come in and the teacher was the only one in the classroom, I took advantage of the time it took them to put their gear on to bring up what was happening Saturday. He worked with me for a few months last year before he had to leave. I was progressing with him, but he said he noticed I lost some of that since he left. The talk was quick, but good.

I joined the class (although it's not my belt group) and after the warmup he called up mr. dancer and a cousin and talked about distances from opponent (staying in close so you're hard to hit, staying out of the zone where you can most easily be hit, and staying further away), specifically why staying far away and moving in circles is not necessarily a good tactic. Hearing him talk and seeing his demonstration, then watching the kids, helped. Then he put me against the other cousin, where I focused on response to circling. For some reason he also was circling similar to the original kid, except he didn't stay as far out. That was good practice. After waiting for the third pair, I was called up with my nemesis

He still tried to circle like before, but I did what I just practiced and I think he was just a bit confused by the change (even after the lesson and demonstration and seeing me do this on his cousin). No grin, so I know it's not that he just usually grins. Definitely wasn't deliberately using the grin as a tactic to get to me.

What I did was feint, stomp, switch - whatever seemed right, but mostly let him come to me before attacking/countering. When he started the circle thing, I'd get him circling the direction I wanted, then let him run into my roundhouse, or do reverse side kick so he ran into my kick. Or I chose the kick based on the direction he was going. Either way it worked on him. He's not some super prodigy, I do have experience he doesn't yet, but I hope he does come up with something else. After I practice the counter on him a more. I have no reason to think I'll stop tkd soon, so I'm sure I'll see someone spar like that again. It was productive for me and he was puzzled without being beat down or anything by me.

I like the way the teacher used my difficulty to base the lesson on. Discrete, no one called out. And the way he had me watch, practice on someone else, and THEN spar the kid that gave me difficulty on Saturday. The boys were given the same information I was, so they were not totally uninformed.

What have you learned from this experience?