What are your thoughts on knee on the back of the neck.

[jobo]

Why? You can kill a person by kneeling on them.

Bouncers already have the tools to torture maim and kill. Handcuffs are not a game changer in that respect.

well if they have all they need they dont need anything else, do they ?

 

[Bruce7]

That has no wrist lock in it, but I suspect you're remembering someone doing it with a nikkyo lock, which seems to be farily common. Add the wrist lock, and it's the arm bar with a reverse wrist I was referring to.

Your right, your description is correct. I picked the wrong video

 

[drop bear]

well if they have all they need they dont need anything else, do they ?

No they need options to hold people in a restraint that does not torture maim or kill.

Which is pretty much the point of handcuffs.

 

[drop bear]

Your probably right, the master I tried to punch who throw me to ground was a master in aikido, most people probably could not have perform the techique.
Aikido takes many years to perfect, so using it as bouncer may not be practical.

What happens is basically this.

You go to bouncer school. get taught laughable junk. But it works because your role play partner makes it work.

 

[CB Jones]

No they need options to hold people in a restraint that does not torture maim or kill.

Install in corner.

You go to bouncer school. get taught laughable junk.

So y'all don't just sit around and watch Road House all day? Lol.....sorry I couldn't resist.

 

[drop bear]

Install in corner.

So y'all don't just sit around and watch Road House all day? Lol.....sorry I couldn't resist.

I thought just handcuff them all to a pole and have the cops come around in the morning and let them go.

Watching roadhouse would have been an improvement.

 

[Dirty Dog]

With the Medical examiner report claiming that their was no strangulation and that Floyd died from underlying conditions.....even 3rd degree might be a tough case to win by the prosecutor.

That report is...sketchy... The underlying conditions of hypertension and heart disease aren't likely to have been the proximate cause of death. They'd likely contribute to it, but the consensus around here is that it's quite unlikely he would have died from those conditions had he not been suffocating.
One thing I think needs to be considered. The images I've seen show 3 officers holding him down. We cannot tell from those images how much weight any officer was applying, but I'd say it's entirely possible that the suffocation was caused by the officer on his back, compressing his chest.

 

[CB Jones]

They'd likely contribute to it, but the consensus around here is that it's quite unlikely he would have died from those conditions had he not been suffocating.

I dunno I haven't read the report....but still doesn't change the fact that the report will be an exhibit in the trial.

 

[Steve]

Just a thought , I remember my alkido teacher swing me to the ground with my arm straight and my wrist bent, there was not way for me to get up. a lot of pain but no damage. Do you know simlar technique in other arts?

I think ninjitsu has a similar technique.

 

[JowGaWolf]

With the Medical examiner report claiming that their was no strangulation and that Floyd died from underlying conditions.....even 3rd degree might be a tough case to win by the prosecutor.

They will look at it again and get a second analysis so that may change. A Medical examiner could be corrupt just like any other human.

 

[JowGaWolf]

That report is...sketchy... The underlying conditions of hypertension and heart disease aren't likely to have been the proximate cause of death. They'd likely contribute to it, but the consensus around here is that it's quite unlikely he would have died from those conditions had he not been suffocating.
One thing I think needs to be considered. The images I've seen show 3 officers holding him down. We cannot tell from those images how much weight any officer was applying, but I'd say it's entirely possible that the suffocation was caused by the officer on his back, compressing his chest.

That is possible, but normally if someone is on your back you can position yourself in such a way that your lungs can function. But you can't position your body if someone has a knee on your neck. In the video you can see him trying to position himself but he couldn't because his neck was pinned.

If you look at the video you can actually see that there was enough pressure for his neck to make a U shape and lift his head off the ground. His head doesn't lay flat as it naturally would if pressure wasn't on the neck.

 

[CB Jones]

They will look at it again and get a second analysis so that may change. A Medical examiner could be corrupt just like any other human.

It will not change...the Medical Examiners report is a record and will be admissible. And for the state to claim him to be corrupt...they have to provide evidence of his corruption.

And if they go after the ME as corrupt they open up every case he was involved in for appeal.

They can have a 2nd ME look at it but both MEs will have testify to there findings. The problem with that is the defense will paint that as they shopped it around to find someone that would say what they wanted. The defense will paint the officer as the sacrificial lamb to the rioters.

These type of cases are extremely difficult without all the public pressure.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I found this video. If this guy can't doing anything with free hands and legs. Then I'm thinking having two guys kneeling on me while handcuff with one guy on my neck isn't going to be a better outcome.

 

[drop bear]

I found this video. If this guy can't doing anything with free hands and legs. Then I'm thinking having two guys kneeling on me while handcuff with one guy on my neck isn't going to be a better outcome.

In BJJ though you are not held down so much by body weight.

 

[JowGaWolf]

It will not change...the Medical Examiners report is a record and will be admissible. And for the state to claim him to be corrupt...they have to provide evidence of his corruption.

That's why you have a independent examination done. That way you can asked the Medical Examiner.. Why did he mark things the way he did.

For example, If he looked at the neck for signs of choking as if someone had put their hands around his neck to choke them, then he's could honestly say that there were no signs of that. But as martial artists we all know that all cokes aren't the same. So if he wrote his report in that context then it skews things because he's not looking for the right things. Or it could be that he already knows what not to look for. Below is what was stated in the Medical Examiner's report

"An autopsy by the Hennepin County Medical Examiner found "no physical findings that support a diagnosis of traumatic asphyxiation or strangulation."
Stopping blood flood in this will now produce these results. It's clear in the video that he's not being strangled. It is also clear in the video that it's not asphyxiation (a condition of deficient supply of oxygen to the body that arises from abnormal breathing). Both of these conditions are related to breathing and not blood flow. It's clear in the video that he's not gasping for air because he talks. The difficulty in breathing may have been the result of the person on the back. But if you watch the video you can see him trying to adjust his body at the beginning and then towards the end you can see that he's trying to adjust his neck more so than his body. The give away is that he puts his face into the ground in hopes to relieve the pressure on his neck. You can even hear a witness say his nose is bleeding. It is also clear in the video that he's not gasping for air.

This is what it sounds like when you can't breath and from personal experience it sucks. You often hear coughing as your body is trying to breath. This is also why I don't like the phrase "If you can talk then you can breathe" Anyone with asthma knows that's crap. But the point is, signals are all the similar and none of which are things that George wa showing.

When you literally can't breath it's like drowing on land. Air doesn't go in and it doesn't come out. And panic sets like this lady who says it was terrifying. We didn't see any of that.

This may mean that his breathing issues were more from the weight being on his back. It's already scientific knowledge that chest compression can cause heart attack and stroke, and unconsciousness. I would look at this had no one been on his neck. It doesn't mean that he couldn't have 2 things going on at the same time, but what is clear is that he complains about his neck and actually tries to make adjustments by putting his face into the ground

The big sign is that he just fades away, he doesn't flutter in a wild panic. He just "goes to sleep" which is something we often see in MMA when the blood supply is cut off vs air being cut off. In the video you can hear him say his neck hurts. Not his throat. If you listen to the videos you can hear his voice and his breathing fade away. So if the medical examiner is only looking for coking and not restricted blood flow, then you could easily cover someone by presenting your findings from that perspective. I'm not saying that's what the medical examiner is doing, but I'm also not saying that he's not doing that. Which is why you have to get an independent examiner there.

The other thing is that George Floyd and Eric Gardner also have similar medical reports. Both state that the cause was an underlying medical condition, both state that hypertension played a role in it, both claim that there was a heart condition as well. Both got the "blood choke." the both medical examiners stated it wasn't from asphyxiation or strangulation, but to my knowledge they didn't say it wasn't due to the blood supply being cut of in the artery of the neck.

The only way to know for sure is to investigate not to verify what the examiner stated but to start from scratch by looking at the video for clues of where you should look. Maybe it's just me, but I doubt the medical examiner looked at the video to assist him with his autopsy. Just saying.

 

[JowGaWolf]

In BJJ though you are not held down so much by body weight.

Agreed. that was an option George didn't have. When you look at the video id didn't take much effort for the police officer to maintain that position. He could add or reduce his weight at will against little to no resistance (when the person stops struggling).

 

[JowGaWolf]

I don't know what he did, but you can hear him say that he was trying to breath too. It looks like the officer has some weight distribution going on with some of the weight on the shoulder blades. The officer that was on George Floyds neck didn't have the same position. or weight distribution.

As a black American this has always been my biggest fear with police. That the officer will some how see me as some super human person that has the ability to fight off 2 grown men in such a way that they need to bring in a squad just to arrest me. Like seriously, if 2 grown men can't arrest 1 person then they shouldn't be officers or they need better training. Do I think this will ever happen. Not really, but that doesn't mean that it won't. So far all of my interactions have been good or good enough. I did have police come to my house because some lady told them that she saw me peeing on the side of a building and that I ran into the house. It took about 30 minutes to convince them otherwise. I also got stopped by an officer who thought I was either buying or selling drugs. This was when I lived in the hood. He asked me where was I going, I told him home. He told me "don't you know this is a drug area". I told him I live down the street. I gave him the address and then he told me that there's no house at that address. WTF?!?! so my state issued license has a fake address? But I didn't get a beat down, didn't get 8 cops on my back so it was good enough.

 

[Buka]

What happens is basically this.

You go to bouncer school. get taught laughable junk. But it works because your role play partner makes it work.

Ah, the complete and utter bull ship about handcuffing.

 

[JR 137]

I’m not trying to defend what was done and the outcome in any way, shape or form. But I feel I must say this...

Someone saying they can’t breathe can actually breathe. Perhaps not breathe freely, but they can definitely breathe. We had people say “I can’t breathe” all the time to the refs in wrestling. And during practice sometimes. Just about every coach would say “if he can talk he can breathe.”

Maybe I’m opening a can of worms with that one, but that’s a train of thought for a lot of people. Again, not defending what happened at all.

 

[dvcochran]

No they need options to hold people in a restraint that does not torture maim or kill.

Which is pretty much the point of handcuffs.

Handcuff(s). The plurality is the key. Would have made it a non-event.