What are your thoughts on knee on the back of the neck.

[Buka]

As bouncers we were generally not allowed to carry handcuffs. Which I think made the risk of killing someone much greater because you sort of couldn't get off people sometimes.

It was one of those silly beurocratical moves that never made any sense to me.

Here, I've never heard of bouncers being allowed cuffs. Which is good thing. Even though, God knows, we sure could have used them sometimes.

 

[Oily Dragon]

With the Medical examiner report claiming that their was no strangulation and that Floyd died from underlying conditions.....even 3rd degree might be a tough case to win by the prosecutor.

Yeah, the underlying condition was his neck was underlying the knee of a police officer with a long history of formal complaints for almost ten minutes.

What are my thoughts on knee on back on neck? Great way to murder someone during an arrest for a non-violent charge, according to the tape.

Boo.

 

[drop bear]

Here, I've never heard of bouncers being allowed cuffs. Which is good thing. Even though, God knows, we sure could have used them sometimes.

The issue we would have is if I had to restrain a guy for the cops. I could either sit there with a knee on top of him. Or let him up and hope he becomes compliant.

So we would take a guy down wrap him up wait untill he settled down, let him up wait untill he amped back up take him down again.

We could have 4 separate fights with one guy it was simply ridiculous.

I worked a place that was baton hand cuffs until someone smashed someone's skull in with one.

We even had dogs there at one point.

 

[drop bear]

With the Medical examiner report claiming that their was no strangulation and that Floyd died from underlying conditions.....even 3rd degree might be a tough case to win by the prosecutor.

Yeah they will still go for contributing to a death due to a whole bunch of reckless actions. Which will still be a manslaughter. Arguing that if the guy was just walking down the street he probably wouldn't have dropped dead.


A lot of that sort of misadventure during an assult goes down that way.

 

[CB Jones]

Yeah they will still go for contributing to a death due to a whole bunch of reckless actions. Which will still be a manslaughter. Arguing that if the guy was just walking down the street he probably wouldn't have dropped dead.


A lot of that sort of misadventure during an assult goes down that way.

Yeah....just saying that makes bit a little harder. It gives the defense something to attack and try to sow seeds of doubt.

 

[CB Jones]

The issue we would have is if I had to restrain a guy for the cops. I could either sit there with a knee on top of him. Or let him up and hope he becomes compliant.

They should at least let you carry Tuff Ties for guys like that. They are disposable nylon restraints. They work well and cost less than $2 each.

 

[drop bear]

They should at least let you carry Tuff Ties for guys like that. They are disposable nylon restraints. They work well and cost less than $2 each.

Yeah which have been traditionally hard to get here but I recently found a source.

 

[Bruce7]

Just a thought , I remember my alkido teacher swing me to the ground with my arm straight and my wrist bent, there was not way for me to get up. a lot of pain but no damage. Do you know simlar technique in other arts?

 

[Deleted member 39746]

The issue we would have is if I had to restrain a guy for the cops. I could either sit there with a knee on top of him. Or let him up and hope he becomes compliant.

Pending how the law is written its arresting someone. And pending how citizen arrest/restraint laws are written its unlawful arrest/detention/ false imprisionment.

None of those 3 you really want to be convicted of usually.


Honestly i swear there are some places that let bouncers use what ever force and dont regulate it and i swear some think they can still just throat punch some drunk trying to get entry. I have seen a few videos of what i would deem exessive force used by them, i swear people dont think you can sue/bring charges against the establishment/b for bouncer action, but then they are usually intoxicated.

Also, you can just use normal cable ties, you dont need the fancy handcuff ones (those do work better than normal cable ties though)

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Just a thought , I remember my alkido teacher swing me to the ground with my arm straight and my wrist bent, there was not way for me to get up. a lot of pain but no damage. Do you know simlar technique in other arts?

That's a fairly vague description, and could either correspond to an arm bar with a reverse wrist lock or just that wrist lock (the wrist lock I'm thinking of, I think, is nikkyo in Aikido).

 

[jobo]

Pending how the law is written its arresting someone. And pending how citizen arrest/restraint laws are written its unlawful arrest/detention/ false imprisionment.

None of those 3 you really want to be convicted of usually.


Honestly i swear there are some places that let bouncers use what ever force and dont regulate it and i swear some think they can still just throat punch some drunk trying to get entry. I have seen a few videos of what i would deem exessive force used by them, i swear people dont think you can sue/bring charges against the establishment/b for bouncer action, but then they are usually intoxicated.

Also, you can just use normal cable ties, you dont need the fancy handcuff ones (those do work better than normal cable ties though)

hand cuffs arnt illegal for bouncers in the uk, except by virtue of the licencing requirements for security companies. anybody can carry them, though they may take some explaing if your roaming the streets with them

though i can see why they wouldnt want some of them screw loose guys using them, the police causes enough damage by over tightening them and twisting them as torture. i dont think the average bouncer should be trusted with them

 

[Deleted member 39746]

hand cuffs arnt illegal for bouncers in the uk, except by virtue of the licencing requirements for security companies. anybody can carry them, though they may take some explaing if your roaming the streets with them

though i can see why they wouldnt want some of them screw loose guys using them, the police causes enough damage by over tightening them and twisting them as torture. i dont think the average bouncer should be trusted with them

Them not being restrictcted is one thing. But you can only perform a citizens arrest on a indcitable offence. Now i have seen the CPS and the act list off two diffrent things. There is a criteria where you can make a citizens arrest for prevent of harm and also loss of property. And also one for if you belive a cosntable wont arrive before they leave. The latter i think still only applies to indictable offences. The former are both indictable offences if i recall my law correctly.

And then my little scruammage in this leads me to, you can peform citizens arrests, but the person you are arresting may be in their lawful right to stop you. Honestly, if you are holding them for police using any form of restraint barring your hands is kind of iffy, especially if you were carrying them. Security at least has some defence in the matter, but its a little iffy still as they tend to respond to those ones quicker.

So lesson of today, unless they are attacking you or are running off with your property dont bother with citizens arrests.

 

[dvcochran]

Even just sitting down on the suspect’s butt would’ve worked just fine and no chance of any realistic injury.

Agree. If they were waiting on EMT there are better ways to detain.

 

[jobo]

Them not being restrictcted is one thing. But you can only perform a citizens arrest on a indcitable offence. Now i have seen the CPS and the act list off two diffrent things. There is a criteria where you can make a citizens arrest for prevent of harm and also loss of property. And also one for if you belive a cosntable wont arrive before they leave. The latter i think still only applies to indictable offences. The former are both indictable offences if i recall my law correctly.

And then my little scruammage in this leads me to, you can peform citizens arrests, but the person you are arresting may be in their lawful right to stop you. Honestly, if you are holding them for police using any form of restraint barring your hands is kind of iffy, especially if you were carrying them. Security at least has some defence in the matter, but its a little iffy still as they tend to respond to those ones quicker.

So lesson of today, unless they are attacking you or are running off with your property dont bother with citizens arrests.

well almost, you can only preform an arrest where there has been an idictable offence, but most things you may want to grab hold of someone for are indictable offences, such as theft or criminal damage, but not common assault, cycling on the pavement or being a complete ****

however if it turns out what ever you thought they had done either hasn't occurred or occurred by someone else then there is every chance the arrest is unlawful, which is generally a civil matter, that is they can sue you, handcuffing is only going to lead to more damages being paid

you dont have to lay hands on them for this to happen, just stopping them from leaving, say standing in the doorway would be unlawful arrest.

of course if they are innocence and they smack you on the nose for unlawfully arresting them they are in the right or at least not in the wrong, if you respond by smacking them in the nose, wrestling them to the ground and hand cuffing them then you definitely in the wrong.

there another ancient power which is taking action to prevent a breech of the piece, that is ill defined and a bit dodgy

security that lay hands on you to throw you out is different than doing so to arrest you, that relies on the tort of trespass

 

[Bruce7]

That's a fairly vague description, and could either correspond to an arm bar with a reverse wrist lock or just that wrist lock (the wrist lock I'm thinking of, I think, is nikkyo in Aikido).

Something similar to this.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Something similar to this.

That has no wrist lock in it, but I suspect you're remembering someone doing it with a nikkyo lock, which seems to be farily common. Add the wrist lock, and it's the arm bar with a reverse wrist I was referring to.

 

[Buka]

The issue we would have is if I had to restrain a guy for the cops. I could either sit there with a knee on top of him. Or let him up and hope he becomes compliant.

So we would take a guy down wrap him up wait untill he settled down, let him up wait untill he amped back up take him down again.

We could have 4 separate fights with one guy it was simply ridiculous.

I worked a place that was baton hand cuffs until someone smashed someone's skull in with one.

We even had dogs there at one point.

"Even had dogs there at one point"......man, that has movie written all over it. And I'd be the first in line.

 

[drop bear]

hand cuffs arnt illegal for bouncers in the uk, except by virtue of the licencing requirements for security companies. anybody can carry them, though they may take some explaing if your roaming the streets with them

though i can see why they wouldnt want some of them screw loose guys using them, the police causes enough damage by over tightening them and twisting them as torture. i dont think the average bouncer should be trusted with them

Why? You can kill a person by kneeling on them.

Bouncers already have the tools to torture maim and kill. Handcuffs are not a game changer in that respect.

 

[drop bear]

Just a thought , I remember my alkido teacher swing me to the ground with my arm straight and my wrist bent, there was not way for me to get up. a lot of pain but no damage. Do you know simlar technique in other arts?

Doesn't work you get shown it in bouncer school. And then you discard it as effectively useless and wind up doing any old thing instead.

Which is a large part of the problem.

I mean if you have to go off script anyway you may as well go all the way off script.

 

[Bruce7]

Doesn't work you get shown it in bouncer school. And then you discard it as effectively useless and wind up doing any old thing instead.

Which is a large part of the problem.

I mean if you have to go off script anyway you may as well go all the way off script.

Your probably right, the master I tried to punch who throw me to ground was a master in aikido, most people probably could not have perform the techique.
Aikido takes many years to perfect, so using it as bouncer may not be practical.