What are these techniques really for?

[dancingalone]

As to your comment that a block could be a grab or a parry or a strike, I would answer that first it must be a block. You first have to block/parry it so it doesn't hit you. Then, and as a continuation of the move, you most certainly may grab or strike some other part of the attacker's person.

I see it as a hierarchy of learning. Certainly the first level of understanding has hard-style blocks as a key component. People can stay here and do very well for themselves, working primarily on power and striking precision for retaliation as long as they also toughen their bodies for blocking, hitting, and being able to take a hit themselves. IMO moving on requires development of other characteristics, both physical and mental.

As I was taught, we would block as we move in, a counter-attack being part of the entire movement. We have very few counters to a punch or kick where we would not first block, or block as part of the counter.

Not knowing your particular form of hapkido, I can't comment directly on what you've been taught specifically, but in the arts I've studied it is understood that the various defenses only serve as a starting place. Advanced students perform them different than beginners - often the various actions are so compressed that one or more of the components of defense (move -> block -> enter -> strike -> control) are combined so that they may appear to be missing altogether. The by-the-number directions are there to serve as a fundamental guide, but as one grows in his skill, his movement is more and more subtle. The likes of O'Sensei could avoid direct attacks by entering the space of his assailants and then counter to great effect with a mere expression from his center. To the uninitiated, it looked like he was doing nothing at all, yet one way or another an adept of his skill can accomplish all the fundamental steps of defense at once.

... No time at present to write a longer exposition. I will try to respond to your other comments later.

 

[puunui]

If you just want Fitness and Health, Jog.

If you just want self defense, buy a gun. Or take Peyton Quinn's weekend course.

 

[puunui]

I do Ashtanga yoga myself, and there are some similarities but IMO at the core the two activities are different. In yoga, we don't strive for violent acceleration of the limbs with the body mass braced behind them. We also don't tension our core muscles at the key delivery moment as is done in karate or tae kwon do.

Who says that you have to strive for violent acceleration of the limbs or tense your core muscles at the key delivery moment when practicing the martial arts?

While clearly martial arts can be performed for exercise, there are more efficient, probably more safe methods to become fit if that is our primary goal.

Are there? When I was younger, I did things the way you describe, especially with a violent knee snap on my kicks. When I got older, I went through everything and reached a point where I do not need to overly emphasize violent knee snap to generate power. Instead I overly emphasize hip turn and body weight momentum shifting into my roundhouse kick and other kicks. The end result is a safe training method which greatly reduces the possibility of injury and yet still being able to generate the type of speed and power in kicks that the korean martial arts are known for.

I understand your rebuke but try as I might I'm not in a place yet where I can live and let live about such things.

Give it time. You can only fight the current and swim upstream for so long. I speak to my friends about their dojang and some cannot remember the last time any prospective student inquired about self defense.

 

[dancingalone]

Who says that you have to strive for violent acceleration of the limbs or tense your core muscles at the key delivery moment when practicing the martial arts?

....

Are there? When I was younger, I did things the way you describe, especially with a violent knee snap on my kicks. When I got older, I went through everything and reached a point where I do not need to overly emphasize violent knee snap to generate power. Instead I overly emphasize hip turn and body weight momentum shifting into my roundhouse kick and other kicks. The end result is a safe training method which greatly reduces the possibility of injury and yet still being able to generate the type of speed and power in kicks that the korean martial arts are known for.

Both the acceleration and core muscle tension are part of the requirements for creating what Okinawans call chinkuchi. This practice is the reason why I can have an uke hold a thick yellow pages directory against their abdomen for a shield yet I can still drop him with a punch to the gut. It is because my strike penetrates through.

<shrugs> You can still punch relatively hard without using this method... Just not as hard nor as effectively since the same penetrating force isn't present. Without chinkuchi if a person punches another person with a yellow pages as a barrier, a push would likely be produced rather than a crumpling strike.

 

[puunui]

YIt sounds to me that you are adding bodyweight exercises to supplement the physical training, and while I love it and do it myself, it's not martial arts - it's physical conditioning.

I don't see how you can separate physical conditioning exercises from martial arts training. For example, is makiwara training physical conditioning or martial arts training? What about other hojo undo?

 

[puunui]

Both the acceleration and core muscle tension are part of the requirements for creating what Okinawans call chinkuchi. This practice is the reason why I can have an uke hold a thick yellow pages directory against their abdomen for a shield yet I can still drop him with a punch to the gut. It is because my strike penetrates through.

<shrugs> You can still punch relatively hard without using this method... Just not as hard nor as effectively since the same penetrating force isn't present. Without chinkuchi if a person punches another person with a yellow pages as a barrier, a push would likely be produced rather than a crumpling strike.

What if your purpose is something other than dropping someone with a punch to the gut?

 

[dancingalone]

I don't see how you can separate physical conditioning exercises from martial arts training. For example, is makiwara training physical conditioning or martial arts training? What about other hojo undo?

I would consider makiwara striking martial arts training as you are building focus and technique primarily with this exercise. The knuckle conditioning is a nice added bonus. On the other hand, hojo undo is indelibly liked with Naha-te, but ultimately it's physical conditioning in nature.

Splitting hairs? Maybe, maybe not. I think the real question that decides it is whether a particular system exists without whatever we are talking about. Is tae kwon do practiced without core strength exercises? Yes, definitely so, and by a lot of people at that. So, it follows that these core strengthening exercises are NOT a part of tae kwon do, although they can be a great complement to it.

 

[dancingalone]

What if your purpose is something other than dropping someone with a punch to the gut?

I don't understand what you are asking.

 

[puunui]

I would consider makiwara striking martial arts training as you are building focus and technique primarily with this exercise. The knuckle conditioning is a nice added bonus.

I was taught that the knuckle conditioning is not the really a concern when doing makiwara training, that in fact it is better to use a soft surface to strike (a small piece of puzzle mat for example). Instead, the focus on makiwara training is the development of the muscles, tendons and ligaments. It is the okinawan version of solo flex. It is the same with any other physical conditioning exercise, where you are building both focus and technique.

 

[puunui]

I don't understand what you are asking.

What if your purpose is something other than dropping someone with a punch to the gut? Do you still need to perform such that explosive speed and power are the necessary end result when doing the martial arts? Or can you do kata for example with less intensity? And in doing so, with less intensity, does that somehow turn it into something less than the martial arts? Is taichi for example, a martial art?

 

[dancingalone]

What if your purpose is something other than dropping someone with a punch to the gut? Do you still need to perform such that explosive speed and power are the necessary end result when doing the martial arts? Or can you do kata for example with less intensity? And in doing so, with less intensity, does that somehow turn it into something less than the martial arts? Is taichi for example, a martial art?

If you don't need to destroy someone, then strike with less intensity. Regardless, it's nice to have options, and even if we never need the ability in these peaceful times, there is still something to be said for reaching for the highest level in your chosen endeavor. I will never be as effortless as O'Sensei in my movement yet I still strive to get better with every practice. If we are content to reach for something else, that is fine, but I think some things aren't relativistic or ambiguous - if we are aiming to practice the highest levels of striking (at least in the karate arena), then there are clear physical signposts of how to reach them.

Incidentally, tai chi is deceptively soft as you likely know. They have their own form of stunning force, even though the vast majority of practitioners never come close to achieving it. And to answer your question directly, it is readily apparent that most people don't practice tai chi as a martial art if they don't push hands or if they don't try to issue faijin. Perhaps moving mediation or joint & breath rejuvenation exercise would be a better description for those people.

 

[Cyriacus]

If you just want self defense, buy a gun. Or take Peyton Quinn's weekend course.

That is quite possibly one of the silliest things ive ever heard. No Offense, really. But you make it sound like I was using my Previous Comment as some kind of Criticism.


Its clear youre Biased here - But take into account that not everyone will share your View on this. (Fitness, I mean. Not Guns. Read on.)
Now, your first thought is going to be the same thing back.
Fitness =/= Self Defense. Very Different. They are not one in the same.


Guns do not make you impervious to Harm.
Guns, if sighted by your attacker, who isnt going to sit there and have a chat with you about how he plans to accost you, will fight you all the harder. Because to Him, now its Survival. Not just Assault. He NEEDS to Overwhelm you to Survive, now. And People arent stupid.
Guns need to be produced in order to be fired. Assuming it was already Loaded and Chambered and the Safety was Off, youd still need to Point and Fire. All whilst more than likely several People are assaulting you, also likely with Weapons.
But incase youd rather not hear such things from Me;
http://takingcareofourselves.blogspot.com/2009/02/get-facts-guns-dont-protect-you-by.html
Different People Operate Differently. Some People carry Knives. Sticks. Brass Knuckles. Guns.
Other People so happen to prefer being Unarmed.

Who says that you have to strive for violent acceleration of the limbs or tense your core muscles at the key delivery moment when practicing the martial arts?


Are there? When I was younger, I did things the way you describe, especially with a violent knee snap on my kicks. When I got older, I went through everything and reached a point where I do not need to overly emphasize violent knee snap to generate power. Instead I overly emphasize hip turn and body weight momentum shifting into my roundhouse kick and other kicks. The end result is a safe training method which greatly reduces the possibility of injury and yet still being able to generate the type of speed and power in kicks that the korean martial arts are known for.


Give it time. You can only fight the current and swim upstream for so long. I speak to my friends about their dojang and some cannot remember the last time any prospective student inquired about self defense.

Because you wont make it past White Belt if you dont Tense when its proper.


Good for you, Mate. Now if you did Both, perhaps youd have More Power.


Good for you again. If you and your Friends arent in it for Self Defense, thats your call. It doesnt make it a Rule of Thumb. I say again - Different People Train with Different Intentions. Accept the other intentions or youre just as bad as the People who Train for SD who you claim look down their Noses at less Volatile Practitioners.

I was taught that the knuckle conditioning is not the really a concern when doing makiwara training, that in fact it is better to use a soft surface to strike (a small piece of puzzle mat for example). Instead, the focus on makiwara training is the development of the muscles, tendons and ligaments. It is the okinawan version of solo flex. It is the same with any other physical conditioning exercise, where you are building both focus and technique.

Well, at least youre not one of the sorts who think your hand will collapse in like a twig as soon as you punch something.
On the other hand, the Knuckles can be Damaged by Force. Try Punching a Brick Wall or Concrete Post. A Forehead is not a Soft Surface. Not is a Breastplate. Just some food for thought.

What if your purpose is something other than dropping someone with a punch to the gut? Do you still need to perform such that explosive speed and power are the necessary end result when doing the martial arts? Or can you do kata for example with less intensity? And in doing so, with less intensity, does that somehow turn it into something less than the martial arts? Is taichi for example, a martial art?

Firstly, Tai Chi is, actually, a Martial Art. There are Combative Types of Tai Chi.


As for Power and Intensity, that is up to the Individual. But id rather know I can hit with Explosive Power and take out someone Triple my Size, than know that I can be all laid back.
It isnt hard to take the Power out of something.








The Bottom Line, is that some People really actually do Train for the Combative. And the Power. And the Application.
Theres a factor of Personal Choice.
Some People choose to Learn a Sport.
Some People want Fitness.
I can live with them existing.


But I AM Learning a Combative. And so are Hundreds of others that I know of, within this Organisation.
Not all Self Defense can be solved with a Gun, or any Weapon.
Escrimadors (I think I spelt that Right) even learn Unarmed Techniques, despite being a Stick Art.
Judo has Punches.
Aikido has Kicks.
Because all of them are aware that you need a wider range of capabilities than their Primary Focus.
Then you have various Karate, Taekwondo, and whatever else, which come in so many Flavors its quite remarkable, and which Encompass all possible Applications (Hands, Elbows, Shoulders, Head, Knees, Legs, Arms, Feet, Grappling, Striking, Weapons, Etc etc etc. All Encompassing, in other words.)
Everyone is catered for here.
But consider this;
People DO Jog for Fitness and Health. It isnt just something im ploying here. People do it. And it works for them.
Martial Arts may work for others, but whether they like it or not, along the way, theyre learning Methodologies designed to inflict Bodily Harm.


As such, I can more than Justify My Choice to Practitioner a Martial Art for Combative and Self Defense Purposes.
You are free to view MA in a different Light. And I am more than willing to accept your Personal Preference. But lets not forget why there are so many Forms to begin with.
And if your Primary Aim is Fitness, Good for You. Im glad youre getting what You want out of your Training.
Im learning a Combative. Are you Happy for Me?

Note: I rarely, rarely state My Opinion here. This is mostly Retrospective Information. Im not here to try and Communicate anything more than My Viewpoint. Not so much trying to Debate Opinionation.

 

[puunui]

If you don't need to destroy someone, then strike with less intensity.

Or don't strike at all, other than air. There are people who train like that, kata only. Are they martial artists?

 

[puunui]

That is quite possibly one of the silliest things ive ever heard. No Offense, really. But you make it sound like I was using my Previous Comment as some kind of Criticism.

I could say the same thing about your jogging suggestion.

Its clear youre Biased here - But take into account that not everyone will share your View on this. (Fitness, I mean. Not Guns. Read on.)
Now, your first thought is going to be the same thing back.
Fitness =/= Self Defense. Very Different. They are not one in the same.

I never said they were the same.

Guns do not make you impervious to Harm.

Never said it did. I don't see why you get so upset when I give you an alternate suggestion for "self defense" but then feel that it is perfectly ok for you to give me a suggestion about health.

Guns, if sighted by your attacker, who isnt going to sit there and have a chat with you about how he plans to accost you, will fight you all the harder. Because to Him, now its Survival. Not just Assault. He NEEDS to Overwhelm you to Survive, now. And People arent stupid.
Guns need to be produced in order to be fired. Assuming it was already Loaded and Chambered and the Safety was Off, youd still need to Point and Fire. All whilst more than likely several People are assaulting you, also likely with Weapons.
But incase youd rather not hear such things from Me;
http://takingcareofourselves.blogspot.com/2009/02/get-facts-guns-dont-protect-you-by.html
Different People Operate Differently. Some People carry Knives. Sticks. Brass Knuckles. Guns.
Other People so happen to prefer being Unarmed.

I've actually had the barrel of a loaded 38 placed in my ear. I've also stared down the barrel of a shotgun pointed at my face. How about you?

Because you wont make it past White Belt if you dont Tense when its proper.

Some people don't care about rank.

Good for you, Mate. Now if you did Both, perhaps youd have More Power.

Some people don't care about having more power.

Good for you again. If you and your Friends arent in it for Self Defense, thats your call.

I was talking about my friends who teach at their own dojang not remembering the last time a prospective student coming in and asking about self defense. It's not so much that they are not into it but rather today's potential student isn't into it.


It doesnt make it a Rule of Thumb. I say again - Different People Train with Different Intentions. Accept the other intentions or youre just as bad as the People who Train for SD who you claim look down their Noses at less Volatile Practitioners.

Well, at least youre not one of the sorts who think your hand will collapse in like a twig as soon as you punch something.
On the other hand, the Knuckles can be Damaged by Force. Try Punching a Brick Wall or Concrete Post. A Forehead is not a Soft Surface. Not is a Breastplate. Just some food for thought.

I think it is stupid to punch an immovable object like a brick wall or concrete post. And I generally would aim my punch for either your nose, tip of your chin,or under your chin, or at your tmj joint, not the forehead or breastplate.

Firstly, Tai Chi is, actually, a Martial Art. There are Combative Types of Tai Chi.

I know and don't disagree with you. What I am wondering is why you think that I do.

As for Power and Intensity, that is up to the Individual. But id rather know I can hit with Explosive Power and take out someone Triple my Size, than know that I can be all laid back. It isnt hard to take the Power out of something.

Do you think I disagree with you?

The Bottom Line, is that some People really actually do Train for the Combative. And the Power. And the Application.
Theres a factor of Personal Choice.
Some People choose to Learn a Sport.
Some People want Fitness.
I can live with them existing.

Which is my point exactly.

But I AM Learning a Combative. And so are Hundreds of others that I know of, within this Organisation.
Not all Self Defense can be solved with a Gun, or any Weapon.
Escrimadors (I think I spelt that Right) even learn Unarmed Techniques, despite being a Stick Art.
Judo has Punches.
Aikido has Kicks.
Because all of them are aware that you need a wider range of capabilities than their Primary Focus.
Then you have various Karate, Taekwondo, and whatever else, which come in so many Flavors its quite remarkable, and which Encompass all possible Applications (Hands, Elbows, Shoulders, Head, Knees, Legs, Arms, Feet, Grappling, Striking, Weapons, Etc etc etc. All Encompassing, in other words.)
Everyone is catered for here.
But consider this;
People DO Jog for Fitness and Health. It isnt just something im ploying here. People do it. And it works for them.
Martial Arts may work for others, but whether they like it or not, along the way, theyre learning Methodologies designed to inflict Bodily Harm.

People use guns for self defense as well, in case you didn't know that.

As such, I can more than Justify My Choice to Practitioner a Martial Art for Combative and Self Defense Purposes.
You are free to view MA in a different Light. And I am more than willing to accept your Personal Preference. But lets not forget why there are so many Forms to begin with.
And if your Primary Aim is Fitness, Good for You. Im glad youre getting what You want out of your Training.
Im learning a Combative. Are you Happy for Me?

Actually yes I am happy that you're happy. And frankly, I am still trying to figure out why you think I would not be. Whatever reason you choose to practice is fine, just as long as you believe that others also have the right to practice for their own reasons, without being looked down upon by others.

Note: I rarely, rarely state My Opinion here. This is mostly Retrospective Information. Im not here to try and Communicate anything more than My Viewpoint. Not so much trying to Debate Opinionation.

ok.

 

[Cyriacus]

I could say the same thing about your jogging suggestion.

I said youd say that "Now, your first thought is going to be the same thing back." -But that was a lack of clarification on My part.


I never said they were the same.

I never said you did - That was a Reference to clear that up right away.


Never said it did. I don't see why you get so upset when I give you an alternate suggestion for "self defense" but then feel that it is perfectly ok for you to give me a suggestion about health.

I know that as well. I was mainly addressing that Statement. Im not Upset, either. If I were Upset, id say Nothing. This is Debating. Not Argueing.


I've actually had the barrel of a loaded 38 placed in my ear. I've also stared down the barrel of a shotgun pointed at my face. How about you?

Actually, I have. He was outside my Line of Sight, and I didnt know it was there until he said something and I looked. Thats more a matter of not being able to see someone.



Some people don't care about rank.

Neither do I. But youre only taught Bare Basics at that stage. To such an extent that you may as well just buy a Book and Practice at Home, perhaps with a Youtube Video or two.


Some people don't care about having more power.

EXACTLY. And some People DO. Thats My Point


I was talking about my friends who teach at their own dojang not remembering the last time a prospective student coming in and asking about self defense. It's not so much that they are not into it but rather today's potential student isn't into it.

Everything we Learn is Self Defense or Engagement Oriented. There is barely anything else, beyond what you need to be better at that. And all our Students are aware of their other Options.

I think it is stupid to punch an immovable object like a brick wall or concrete post. And I generally would aim my punch for either your nose, tip of your chin,or under your chin, or at your tmj joint, not the forehead or breastplate.

Naturally. But like a Firearm, you dont always hit what your Aiming for, and People can Block. Elbow Blocks are a good example.


I know and don't disagree with you. What I am wondering is why you think that I do.

That may have been a Misinterpritation of what you were saying. Ill go with that.


Do you think I disagree with you?

No - But again, that Statement is to ensure im covering every Angle, and that it comes accross the way I want it to. If I didnt say that, it may cause other things to be read in a different Light. Its like saying, "So you Start the Car..."


Which is my point exactly.

You have an Interesting Way of Communicating that Point


People use guns for self defense as well, in case you didn't know that.

I know. And that is their comfort zone. But the queston is what is most Applicable at the Time. Krav Maga (It might have been Systema. Ill find out in a minute) teaches Kicking whilst holding a Rifle, as oppose to using the Rifle. Since if some guy gets in your face, you can hardly just shoot him. Threaten him with a Weapon, definitely. But you cannot just shoot him, just like that. So, you could hit him with the Weapon. But by that Logic, why not cut out the Weapon. Or dont.


Actually yes I am happy that you're happy. And frankly, I am still trying to figure out why you think I would not be. Whatever reason you choose to practice is fine, just as long as you believe that others also have the right to practice for their own reasons, without being looked down upon by others.

Read Below;


ok.

I think were saying the same things in different ways, and that these ways are prone to being misinterpreted as a Result, due to the way that we are Reading these Replies.
Ill clarify quickly that I refrain from Argueing - I dont have Time for it, really. I could link you to a Thread thats a good example of Me not Argueing, when it could have been justified, as an example. Im mainly Debating - Presenting Facts against Facts to draw Conclusions, possibly Mutual.

My Conclusion is that we seem to Agree, here. And that any disagreement is purely subject to Misinterpretation of the Intention behind certain Comments.

 

[Earl Weiss]

If you just want self defense, buy a gun. Or take Peyton Quinn's weekend course.

Sadly, I live in the only state without concealed carry. Peyton Quinn's RMCAT course is good, but I think it is a good starting point. I would also have liked the opportunity to go up against the Bulletmen more frequently but the structure of the course did not have the resources for it.

 

[dancingalone]

Or don't strike at all, other than air. There are people who train like that, kata only. Are they martial artists?

If they practice martially.

 

[oftheherd1]

I see it as a hierarchy of learning. Certainly the first level of understanding has hard-style blocks as a key component. People can stay here and do very well for themselves, working primarily on power and striking precision for retaliation as long as they also toughen their bodies for blocking, hitting, and being able to take a hit themselves. IMO moving on requires development of other characteristics, both physical and mental.



Not knowing your particular form of hapkido, I can't comment directly on what you've been taught specifically, but in the arts I've studied it is understood that the various defenses only serve as a starting place. Advanced students perform them different than beginners - often the various actions are so compressed that one or more of the components of defense (move -> block -> enter -> strike -> control) are combined so that they may appear to be missing altogether. The by-the-number directions are there to serve as a fundamental guide, but as one grows in his skill, his movement is more and more subtle. The likes of O'Sensei could avoid direct attacks by entering the space of his assailants and then counter to great effect with a mere expression from his center. To the uninitiated, it looked like he was doing nothing at all, yet one way or another an adept of his skill can accomplish all the fundamental steps of defense at once.

... No time at present to write a longer exposition. I will try to respond to your other comments later.

Well, as I said, I think we are saying the same things but in a different way. And maybe from different perspectings so it seems different. As to my style of Hapkido, it is Soong Moo Kwan. But I think most (though not all) Hapkido styles have more in common than not.

Thanks for your thoughtful replies.

 

[miguksaram]

If you just want Fitness and Health, Jog.

Why? Is it such a bad thing to take up martial arts strictly for fitness and health instead of jogging, which I dislike, but view it as a necessary evil in my training.

If you dislike something you are not going to be motivated to doing simply because you know it is good for you. This is why you don't see everybody jogging or swimming or walking for that manner.

 

[miguksaram]

not to mention the countless tkdists you meet with knee problems

True...joggers never have any leg or knee problems.