What are these techniques really for?

[dancingalone]

I don't think there is only one right answer, but let me put a fight into rhythm with beats. Each movement is a beat, so a block takes up a beat. Assuming you and your opponent move at the same time, let's say your opponent strikes and you block. Unless you have done damage, destroyed his balance, or gained a controlling grip (which your hapkido block often becomes), your opponent can continue his attack. Blocking by itself is definitely better than getting hit, but if you can move to attack in that first beat in a way that avoids his attack, you can defeat him sooner and hopefully with less contact. If you only block and do not improve your situation, the second beat will see the attacker continue his attack, leaving you again only defending on the second beat. It's also good to remember that blocking can result in injury to the blocker. I broke an arm blocking a kick I should have sidestepped when I was a new yellow belt.

Well said.

 

[dancingalone]

As a junior black belt I'm reading and studying the bunkai literature to deepen my study of forms. I think there is value in thinking about movement in a more flexible way and finding applications. At the very least I think it would be incredibly narrow-minded as a martial artist to think of a movement as only one thing with only one use. It's possible that the seniors who designed the Taekwondo patterns were more concerned with carving an independent Korean identity than passing along an intact fighting system such as those contained in some of the karate forms I've read about, but it doesn't really matter for what I'm doing.

As a kid I disliked practicing forms. It seemed pointless to me, and the way they were taught to me as static artful dances, indeed they were. I think I would have felt differently if someone had taught me the information to unlock their usages to me then. It's unfortunate but lots of traditional striking based arts that have forms have similar issues. Kung fu, karate... Plenty of students being taught how to perform patterns, but not the combat usages behind them.

 

[dancingalone]

The Chung Do Kwan's founder, GM LEE Won Kuk, believed that the martial arts was primarily for improving one's health. He wrote a calligraphy, Hwal In Taekwondo, meaning Life Giving Taekwondo or Taekwondo for long life, which was the basis of his philosophy. So the martial arts aren't for beating people up or for "self defense" or "war" or whatever. It is to lengthen your life and improve your physical, mental and spiritual health.

The masters of the past had varying ideas about the primary purpose of martial arts. Itosu, Anko, the teacher of Funakoshi, Gichin noted in his 10 Precepts that individuals must decide whether karate was for health or to 'aid your duty'.

It's a personal choice in one chooses to focus upon, whether that is health, competition, combat usage, or whatever else.

 

[puunui]

That's the best thing of all, a daily benefit. I get fitter and happier, get to train, coach and compete in a fun sport, and meet great people. If I should find practical defense skills that I hope to never need again, that's good too. What's not to like? I'm guessing the Shaolin monks also found practical skills in their fitness activity, or we'd only see them running fitness programs. Apparently GM LEE Won Kuk also felt "primarily", not exclusively.

I'm just answering the original question or the topic, which is what are these techniques really for? Answer: Health and long life, for reasons I already stated. If people want to use the techniques for other things, like self defense, competition, etc., then they are free to do so. But that doesn't mean these other uses are what the techniques are really for.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

seems funny that they would come up with a random set of moves designed for "health and long life" and they all seem to be ways to attack and defend, punches, kicks, elbows, knees, throat strikes, blocks etc. You would think if someone came up with exercises soley for the purpose of health and long life it would look more like aerobics. But I guess you learn something new everyday.

 

[puunui]

The masters of the past had varying ideas about the primary purpose of martial arts. Itosu, Anko, the teacher of Funakoshi, Gichin noted in his 10 Precepts that individuals must decide whether karate was for health or to 'aid your duty'.

Itosu Sensei came several hundred years later. But the original purpose was for health. It wasn't until I studied yoga did the connection between it and the martial arts hit me. The yoga connection also is evident in the Kukkiwon poomsae, where it was explained to me at the Kukkiwon Instructor Course was that certain postures and poses, especially those that involved twisting the torso, were health related. However, if you didn't do the poomsae correctly, keeping shoulders square on blocks for example, then you wouldn't be able to see it and would miss it completely.

I don't have any problem with people hunting around forms for applications. I also don't have any issue with people practicing forms or the martial arts for that matter primarily for self defense purposes. The issue I have is when those types of practitioners look down their noses at practitioners who are in it for non self defense purposes and think that somehow they are not "real" martial artists or real practitioners. This includes the majority of students at most commercial dojang, who are there for some exercise, to lose weight, to gain some self confidence and improve their concentration for studies, which to me sound exactly like what Bodhidarma was attempting to instill in the Shaolin monks with the 18 exercises.

Put another way, the seven year old student at a commercial dojang isn't thinking negative thoughts about the self defense crowd, so why should the self defense crowd think negatively of the seven year old commercial dojang student? Both types of practitioners deserve to be respected for what they are doing. Same for those who train to compete. They should also be equally respected for what they are trying to sincerely achieve.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Itosu Sensei came several hundred years later. But the original purpose was for health. It wasn't until I studied yoga did the connection between it and the martial arts hit me. The yoga connection also is evident in the Kukkiwon poomsae, where it was explained to me at the Kukkiwon Instructor Course was that certain postures and poses, especially those that involved twisting the torso, were health related. However, if you didn't do the poomsae correctly, keeping shoulders square on blocks for example, then you wouldn't be able to see it and would miss it completely.

I don't have any problem with people hunting around forms for applications. I also don't have any issue with people practicing forms or the martial arts for that matter primarily for self defense purposes. The issue I have is when those types of practitioners look down their noses at practitioners who are in it for non self defense purposes and think that somehow they are not "real" martial artists or real practitioners. This includes the majority of students at most commercial dojang, who are there for some exercise, to lose weight, to gain some self confidence and improve their concentration for studies, which to me sound exactly like what Bodhidarma was attempting to instill in the Shaolin monks with the 18 exercises.

Put another way, the seven year old student at a commercial dojang isn't thinking negative thoughts about the self defense crowd, so why should the self defense crowd think negatively of the seven year old commercial dojang student? Both types of practitioners deserve to be respected for what they are doing. Same for those who train to compete. They should also be equally respected for what they are trying to sincerely achieve.

I couldnt agree more. The 3 reasons I originally started tkd were cardio fitness, flexibility and core strength. I had friends who did tkd and I thought the self defence aspect would be worth a try also. If their sole purpose for creating the art was for finess and health however, then they could have thought it through a bit better. I worked for many years in the health and fitness industry and I am a qualified personal trainer and if the 'sole' goal for someone is health, fitness etc then there are much better things to do with your time than tkd.

 

[Cyriacus]

If you just want Fitness and Health, Jog.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

If you just want Fitness and Health, Jog.

Exactly right. Any form of running, with some interval training and even some light weights and stretching will achieve far more than tkd if fitness and health is the goal. Diet would also play a major role in achieving these things also. In fact, the thought of a whole heap of 'elders' sitting around a table and designing something purely for personal health and fitness that involve a series of forms utilizing attacks and defences plus timber breaking and fighting other students and learning defences against wrist grabs, punches etc, all rounded off by wearing a karate uniform with a series of belts and gradings reminds me of something you'd see on a monty python film. As you say, if you want to get fit, go on a jog

 

[Cyriacus]

Exactly right. Any form of running, with some interval training and even some light weights and stretching will achieve far more than tkd if fitness and health is the goal. Diet would also play a major role in achieving these things also. In fact, the thought of a whole heap of 'elders' sitting around a table and designing something purely for personal health and fitness that involve a series of forms utilizing attacks and defences plus timber breaking and fighting other students and learning defences against wrist grabs, punches etc, all rounded off by wearing a karate uniform with a series of belts and gradings reminds me of something you'd see on a monty python film. As you say, if you want to get fit, go on a jog

Yeah.
Today, I felt really Healthy when I put my Partner into a Chokehold and took him down over my Hip.
Or when I was Kicked in the Ribs - Yeah, my Fitness really felt like it was on the up and up!
It all makes sense, really.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Yeah.
Today, I felt really Healthy when I put my Partner into a Chokehold and took him down over my Hip.
Or when I was Kicked in the Ribs - Yeah, my Fitness really felt like it was on the up and up!
It all makes sense, really.

not to mention the countless tkdists you meet with knee problems

 

[Cyriacus]

not to mention the countless tkdists you meet with knee problems

To be fair, its the same with Hip issues.

Tis what you get for not Strengthening those Bones properly.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Put another way, the seven year old student at a commercial dojang isn't thinking negative thoughts about the self defense crowd, so why should the self defense crowd think negatively of the seven year old commercial dojang student? Both types of practitioners deserve to be respected for what they are doing. Same for those who train to compete. They should also be equally respected for what they are trying to sincerely achieve.

I submit it is far different to do something for health reasons or self defense and have that activity target that which you are trying to achieve and a naive 7 year old whose activity may result in health and fitness but be leading to really bad self defense strategies and techniques while that 7 year old (and their parents) thinks they are learning self defense.

 

[Earl Weiss]

To be fair, its the same with Hip issues.

Tis what you get for not Strengthening those Bones properly.

You can have this happen from any number of other issues like gender, genetics, and conditions you may be born with (forgot the word) not related to gender or genetics. (Remember now "Congenital")

 

[Earl Weiss]

Exactly right. Any form of running, with some interval training and even some light weights and stretching will achieve far more than tkd if fitness and health is the goal.

These things are all good but do not provide strength over range of motion like a 4 limb and torso motion activity.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Itosu Sensei came several hundred years later. But the original purpose was for health. .

Hmmm "original" would be an interesting detailed discussion.

Anyway, maybe both? "TKD- The mental training of unarmed combat for self defense aswell as health......"

 

[StudentCarl]

Any form of running, with some interval training and even some light weights and stretching will achieve far more than tkd if fitness and health is the goal. As you say, if you want to get fit, go on a jog

Maybe our training is completely different from yours, but I disagree. Our training is both aerobic and anaerobic, including flexibility, agility and body-weight work with upper and lower body, and extensive core work. I know many people who find running and weight work boring compared to taekwondo class, with it's progressive athletic challenges and focus on continued improvement in a structured and somewhat social setting. I suppose you could do similar things with a personal trainer, but can't agree that you will "achieve far more." Please explain if I'm missing something.

 

[dancingalone]

Itosu Sensei came several hundred years later. But the original purpose was for health. It wasn't until I studied yoga did the connection between it and the martial arts hit me. The yoga connection also is evident in the Kukkiwon poomsae, where it was explained to me at the Kukkiwon Instructor Course was that certain postures and poses, especially those that involved twisting the torso, were health related. However, if you didn't do the poomsae correctly, keeping shoulders square on blocks for example, then you wouldn't be able to see it and would miss it completely.

I do Ashtanga yoga myself, and there are some similarities but IMO at the core the two activities are different. In yoga, we don't strive for violent acceleration of the limbs with the body mass braced behind them. We also don't tension our core muscles at the key delivery moment as is done in karate or tae kwon do.

While clearly martial arts can be performed for exercise, there are more efficient, probably more safe methods to become fit if that is our primary goal.

I don't have any problem with people hunting around forms for applications. I also don't have any issue with people practicing forms or the martial arts for that matter primarily for self defense purposes. The issue I have is when those types of practitioners look down their noses at practitioners who are in it for non self defense purposes and think that somehow they are not "real" martial artists or real practitioners. This includes the majority of students at most commercial dojang, who are there for some exercise, to lose weight, to gain some self confidence and improve their concentration for studies, which to me sound exactly like what Bodhidarma was attempting to instill in the Shaolin monks with the 18 exercises.

Put another way, the seven year old student at a commercial dojang isn't thinking negative thoughts about the self defense crowd, so why should the self defense crowd think negatively of the seven year old commercial dojang student? Both types of practitioners deserve to be respected for what they are doing. Same for those who train to compete. They should also be equally respected for what they are trying to sincerely achieve.

I understand your rebuke but try as I might I'm not in a place yet where I can live and let live about such things. And sometimes I'm not sure that I would be wrong to feel that way either.

I dislike the image traditional martial arts has acquired recently, and to be frank I am not pleased about a lot of the trappings of commercial dojang or dojo. It's not enough to say as some might that we should only worry about our own schools and our own students. Like it or not, we're all lumped into the same mind space by the general public. What happens in the strip mall dojang a few blocks away inevitably has carriage to me as well.

 

[Cyriacus]

As an Offnote, I started Training for Self Defense.
Then it became about being a more Effective Practitioner, Combatives Wise.
Not too much Difference.
But I also appreciate the other Benefits im getting along the way, and dont mind if other People are in it for different reasons.
Just dont expect Me to change My reasons.
Different People Learn for Different Reasons, and different Varieties of the same thing cater for that.

But you cannot generalise People who Train for SD or Combatives simply because some of them look down at less... Im not even sure of a good word for it. Less Volatile, I guess, Forms. Because not all of them do.
Some Less Volatile Practitioners think People who Train for SD or Combatives are *******s.
Theyre just as bad as each other.

Live And Let Live.

 

[dancingalone]

Maybe our training is completely different from yours, but I disagree. Our training is both aerobic and anaerobic, including flexibility, agility and body-weight work with upper and lower body, and extensive core work. I know many people who find running and weight work boring compared to taekwondo class, with it's progressive athletic challenges and focus on continued improvement in a structured and somewhat social setting. I suppose you could do similar things with a personal trainer, but can't agree that you will "achieve far more." Please explain if I'm missing something.

You generally don't build strength in your core or in your back from strictly doing tae kwon do (basics and forms). The legs, yes, from the varied types of kicks along with sufficient stance training. It sounds to me that you are adding bodyweight exercises to supplement the physical training, and while I love it and do it myself, it's not martial arts - it's physical conditioning. The bulk of clubs in my area don't have this for their students at all. They stretch statically at the beginning of class and do a little bit of movement to warm up before jumping straight into something like basics or forms.