What are the non Tang Soo Do branches of Moo Duk Kwan?

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If someone purports to train Moo Duk Kwan TKD, which forms would he/she most likely practice?

Why doesn't the branch that practice Tang Soo Do forms just call themselves Tang Soo Do?

I'm very confused.

If Moo Duk Kwan TKD can refer to all manner of forms, wouldn't it be better to name the style by the patterns it teaches, so you know what they are actually training?

For instance if ITF called itself Chang Hon instead (doesn't need to in this case since all ITF schools only practice Chang Hon).
 
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But there are plenty of non-ITF schools using the Chang Hon forms, so you would still want to specify the org. Just like the various MDK systems do.
And in any case, neither the organization or art are the forms they use. I teach the Palgwae, Taegeuk, and Chang Hon forms. And the practitioners level of skill will be the same regardless of which form set(s) they use. Forms are just a teaching tool; they do not define the art.
MDK Tang Soo Do pre-unification was essentially Shotokan with some northern Chinese influences. This no longer exists.
After the unification, MDK Taekwondo adopted the Palgwae forms.
Then about 1/3 of the MDK, split off, returned to calling their art Tang Soo Do, and used the Pinan forms.
Some of the MDK TKD stayed with the Palgwae forms, and some affiliated with the Kukkiwon and adopted the Taegeuk forms.
MDK TSD changed to Soo Bahk Do and uses modified Pinan forms. Some remained Tang Soo Do.
MDK TKD (using the Palgwae forms), MDK TSD, and MDK SBD are the primary branches, at this point. The branch that stayed fully KKW doesn't really seem to consider themselves part of the MDK any more. That's in keeping with KKW policy, which declared the individual kwans irrelevant as part of their efforts to be seen as the only TKD.
 
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But there are plenty of non-ITF schools using the Chang Hon forms, so you would still want to specify the org. .

The organization will not neccesarily reveal it anyway, but it does in the case of ITF
 

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If forms do not define the art, what does?

Depends on what you mean by "define", really. In one sense, "this is what I teach" defines that art. In a broader sense, an art is defined by the totality of what is taught, the history of the art, the precepts and codes of the art, etc.
Attempting to define the art solely by the forms used seems kind of silly. You (generic you) can't even get everyone to agree on how a given form set is to be taught. I don't teach sine wave, for example. Partly because I don't find sine wave particularly useful for power generation, and partly because I learned the forms before sine wave was a thing.
 
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Depends on what you mean by "define", really. In one sense, "this is what I teach" defines that art. In a broader sense, an art is defined by the totality of what is taught, the history of the art, the precepts and codes of the art, etc.
Attempting to define the art solely by the forms used seems kind of silly. You (generic you) can't even get everyone to agree on how a given form set is to be taught. I don't teach sine wave, for example. Partly because I don't find sine wave particularly useful for power generation, and partly because I learned the forms before sine wave was a thing.

Sine wave is not a pattern. My contention was that patterns define the art. This would entail stances and chambers (with some degrees of freedom), none of which have anything to do with sine wave.
 
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On a 10 point scale, with 10 being absolute perfection.

I mean what patterns does a beginner learn from white to black? Aren't you inevitably confusing the student by mixing different patterns with different body mechanics?
 

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Sine wave is not a pattern. My contention was that patterns define the art. This would entail stances and chambers (with some degrees of freedom), none of which has anything to do with sine wave.

So you define an art based purely on mechanics. Seems narrow and limiting. But feel free.

I mean what patterns does a beginner learn from white to black? Aren't you inevitably confusing the student by mixing different patterns with different body mechanics?

I guess I've always taught smart people.
 
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. I don't teach sine wave, for example. Partly because I don't find sine wave particularly useful for power generation, and partly because I learned the forms before sine wave was a thing.

The same criticism levelled at sine wave is applicable to standard hip twist.. If the body does not follow through the motion, then the attempted power generation through the hip is rendered meaningless. That is, you end up with an arm punch either way.
 

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So you arbitrarily pick patterns from different styles depending on belt grade?

Nope. Nothing arbitrary about it. Or at least, it's no more arbitrary than the way you're taught forms.

The same criticism levelled at sine wave is applicable to standard hip twist.. If the body does not follow through the motion, then the attempted power generation through the hip is rendered meaningless. That is, you end up with an arm punch either way.

OK, and? Teaching different methods of power generation does not require teaching sine wave.

Incidentally, if you could stop breaking a reply to one post into 16,000 posts that reply to one line each, that'd be great. Mkay?
 
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OK, and? Teaching different methods of power generation does not require teaching sine wave.

I was just pointing out that one of the reasons you gave for rejecting it is highly questionable. The study conducted on SW vs hip twist performed by the same practitioner revealed exactly what I wrote: the power output was indistinguishable. If you subjectively dislike doing it mechanically is perfectly legitimate, of course.
 

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I was just pointing out that one of the reasons you gave for rejecting it is highly questionable. The study conducted on SW vs hip twist performed by the same practitioner revealed exactly what I wrote: the power output was indistinguishable. If you subjectively dislike doing it mechanically is perfectly legitimate, of course.

Did you miss the part where I said "I don't find it particularly useful" as opposed to "it doesn't work"?
 
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Did you miss the part where I said "I don't find it particularly useful" as opposed to "it doesn't work"?

I gather then that you were struggling with it as most people do initially, including my instructor who trained ITF since 1966.
 

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I gather then that you were struggling with it as most people do initially, including my instructor who trained ITF since 1966.

Outside of a very narrow range of specific techniques, I don't find it useful. So I don't bother to teach it in forms. If that's "struggling", then OK. After all, your instructor started with the ITF 1-2 years before I did.
I'd like to know how you arrive at the theory that "most" struggle with this. That would require you to have personally evaluated a HUGE number of students. How many students have you trained? To what rank?
 
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Outside of a very narrow range of specific techniques, I don't find it useful. So I don't bother to teach it in forms. If that's "struggling", then OK. After all, your instructor started with the ITF 1-2 years before I did.
I'd like to know how you arrive at the theory that "most" struggle with this. That would require you to have personally evaluated a HUGE number of students. How many students have you trained? To what rank?

Btw, just out of curiosity..Did you guys in ITF predating knee spring/Sine wave, use the same mechanics for punching as in Shotokan? I'm sure you stumbled across Shotokan Karatekas in your day? It looks identical in the 70s footage but they are quite blurry.

My SW remark was regarding most people that I have come in contact with. I don't recall ever learning of a student or instructor say it came naturally to them. That's all.
.
 

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Btw, just out of curiosity..Did you guys in ITF predating knee spring/Sine wave, use the same mechanics for punching as in Shotokan? I'm sure you stumbled across Shotokan Karatekas in your day?

Probably, since that was the source of the system. Since ITF was my earliest training, I would not have been able to make a precise comparison.

It looks identical in the 70s footage but they are quite blurry.

After 50 years, so is memory.

My SW remark was regarding most people that I have come in contact with. I don't recall ever learning of a student or instructor say it came naturally to them. That's all.
.

OK, so not "most", just a few people. But you didn't actually answer my questions.
 
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After 50 years, so is memory.
.

Why do you say that when you are still doing them/teaching them without SW? You have seen a Shotokan kata? Just compare it with yourself? Do you do them differently today?

OK, so not "most", just a few people. But you didn't actually answer my questions.

I seem to recall my instructor telling me that most people around him struggled with the transition. I have not trained any students besides assisting various colored belts from time to time.
 

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