What are the main differences between Xingyiquan, T'ai chi ch'uan, Baguazhang, Bak Mei and Bājíquán

[23rdwave]

The definition of "attack" to me mean you move in and do whatever that you want to do. You don't have to wait for your opponent to do anything. I have trained Taiji for 60 years by now (I started my Taiji training when I was 7). I do know that my "aggressive Taiji nature - act like a tiger and eat my opponent alive" may upset other Taiji people.

In the

- striking art, you want to create a "head on collision" that your fist meets your opponent's face, that's 100% force against force.
- throwing art, you want to create a "rear end collision" that you move the same direction as your opponent is moving, that's borrow force.

In taiji one should borrow force when striking as well. It is not 100% force against force when one fighter is off balance when being struck and the one delivering the strike has a taiji body. It's the mind and body's state or condition that is most important.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

In taiji one should borrow force when striking as well. It is not 100% force against force when one fighter is off balance when being struck and the one delivering the strike has a taiji body. It's the mind and body's state or condition that is most important.

We all know that the "head on collision" will cause the most damage. That's just simple physics A + B > A. This is why, you want to

- punch your opponent while he is moving toward you (this is borrow force that you "wait" for it to happen), or
- pull your opponent's body into your punch (this is also borrow force that you "make" it to happen).

IMO, it's better to "make" it to happen than to "wait for" it to happen. This will require "aggressive" attitude.

Do you want to punch your opponent when he is

- off balance, or
- well balanced?

If your opponent is off balance, when you punch him, most of your power will be cancelled out by his unbalanced body.

When you

- throw a matchbox in the air and punch at it, that matchbox will fly away without broken.
- put a matchbox on the ground and step on it, that matchbox will be crashed.

This is why it's better to take your opponent down first. When you punch him while he is on the ground, his body is "well balanced" because the ground will support all his balance behind his back. Since he is not going anywhere, every single bit of your power will go into his body without any wasting.

 

[23rdwave]

We all know that the "head on collision" will cause the most damage. That's just simple physics A + B > A. This is why, you want to

- punch your opponent while he is moving toward you (this is borrow force that you "wait" for it to happen), or
- pull your opponent's body into your punch (this is also borrow force that you "make" it to happen).

IMO, it's better to "make" it to happen than to "wait for" it to happen. This will require "aggressive" attitude.

Do you want to punch your opponent when he is

- off balance, or
- well balanced?

If your opponent is off balance, when you punch him, most of your power will be cancelled out by his unbalanced body.

When you

- throw a matchbox in the air and punch at it, that matchbox will fly away without broken.
- put a matchbox on the ground and step on it, that matchbox will be crashed.

This is why it's better to take your opponent down first. When you punch him while he is on the ground, his body is "well balanced" because the ground will support all his balance behind his back. Since he is not going anywhere, every single bit of your power will go into his body without any wasting.

It's better to "make" it to happen. I agree.

A man has far greater mass than a matchbox. And I hit him twice. The first time is when I strike him with my fist, the second time is when he hits the ground.

 

[blindsage]

We all know that the "head on collision" will cause the most damage. That's just simple physics A + B > A. This is why, you want to

- punch your opponent while he is moving toward you (this is borrow force that you "wait" for it to happen), or
- pull your opponent's body into your punch (this is also borrow force that you "make" it to happen).

IMO, it's better to "make" it to happen than to "wait for" it to happen. This will require "aggressive" attitude.

Do you want to punch your opponent when he is

- off balance, or
- well balanced?

If your opponent is off balance, when you punch him, most of your power will be cancelled out by his unbalanced body.

When you

- throw a matchbox in the air and punch at it, that matchbox will fly away without broken.
- put a matchbox on the ground and step on it, that matchbox will be crashed.

This is why it's better to take your opponent down first. When you punch him while he is on the ground, his body is "well balanced" because the ground will support all his balance behind his back. Since he is not going anywhere, every single bit of your power will go into his body without any wasting.

Since an upright, unbalanced person is neither a matchbox in the air, nor a matchbox on the ground, your point really has little meaning.

 

[mograph]

I'm not sure if "making it happen" would work against a taijiquan artist. That's exactly what they're waiting for.

(depending on the context, of course)

 

[MyrddinEmrys]

First, to combine two things I like, physics and martial arts:

The matchbox analogy reminds me of high school physics. You can only exert as much force on an object as the object can exert back.

You can also think about it like this: F=ma, where F is force, m is mass, and a is acceleration. Acceleration is the change in velocity, and velocity is how fast and in what direction an object is moving. If you hit a matchbox in midair, the box will just move with your hand, so there will be little to no change in velocity, so little to no force is applied to the matchbox. If you hit the matchbox on the ground, there is a very big change in the velocity of your hand since it goes from moving quickly to being still in a very short amount of time. Same mass, much bigger acceleration, so much more force.

Second, to get back to the original question that started this thread:

I don't know much about bak mei or bajiquan, but my first bagua teacher once told me how one of his teacher's characterized the difference between xingyi, taichi, and bagua. He said xingyi was brave (demonstrated an aggressive forward movement), taichi was a gentleman (demonstrated yielding and letting someone fall past him), and bagua was clever (demonstrated moving evasively to the side of the opponent).

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I'm not sure if "making it happen" would work against a taijiquan artist. That's exactly what they're waiting for.

(depending on the context, of course)

You use "door opening moves" to "make it happen". When you do that, you only apply 30% of your force. You will then expect all kind of respond and that include your opponent tries to borrow your force as well. A simple example can be a "low roundhouse kick at your opponent's leading inside upper leg". when you do that, you don't expect to cause seriously injury on your opponent's leg. You just want your opponent to respond, any kind of respond. Your opponent may:

- raise his leg to block it.
- drop his arm to block it.
- step back to escape it.
- step in and attack your rooting leg.
- ...

As long as your opponent has committed on something, anything, that's all you care about. That's the definition of "door opening move" and "make it happen". No matter what your opponent's respond maybe, you have moved in your leading leg and land your leading foot at the right position that you want. When your opponent responds to your "low roundhouse kick", he may not realize that what you truly want is just to "close the distance" so your fist can meet on his face.

 

[mograph]

KFW, in the case of a block from your opponent, you're assuming that your opponent would only be expecting you to make one move: make the roundhouse then retreat. A good taijiquan player would expect you to break rhythm and strike in combinations, so he would either move in or move back, which in the latter case is not something on which you can act, unless the player is expecting one move from you, as I wrote.

Instead of blocking, a good player would take advantage of your commitment right away (I say commitment, because you expect to make contact with your kick, right?), grab your leg and take you off-balance or move in before you make contact, because roundhouse kicks are well-telegraphed. You would be opening your own door with that kind of move, and only using 30% of your force would be a waste. Feint or make it count, because a good taijiquan player would take advantage of your move..

 

[Colin Barker]

What are they each characterized by?

Also how many sub sets of each are there? (For example you can get Chen style T'ai Chi and so on.)

Loaded lengthy question/explanation. That's a google question really as far as how many subsets/styles there are of bagua, tai chi, baji, etc. As far as the differences in all them where to start. Consider where the art came from or how it was started to find it's intent of attack or defend. I can't speak much on Baji but, Baji was a bodyguard art primarily with lots of body beatings done in the training and much of it intent similar to hsingi.

Tai chi, hsing i, and bagua all have different modes of issuing power, most simply put i'll try and elaborate. Tai chi primarily uses the forward and back method, as in i shift my weight forward and then i shift it backwards. The hips play a part in issuing power but primarily it's you push at me i shift weight back making you unbalanced, now i shift forward and attack/throw or whatever. Tai chi will use this shifting forward and back after they adhere to you as a big part of tai chi is to stick to the opponent.

Hsingi is like a honey badger in that it doesn't care what you do it's all about power and crushing their opponent. Hsingi's motto "herd the moon pursue the wind and stop at nothing!" Yeah it's like that, using i uses the chicken/plow step to issue power. Hsingi primarily uses half body power when striking, smooth body and twist body. Smooth body being if the left hand is out so is the left foot, Twist body would be left hand out with right foot out. Hsingi doesn't worry about circling, adhering, or any other technique. It's all ahead like a charging bull. My friend studied hsingi for 8-10 years, before the was taught to "block", which is awesome.

Bagua has a combination of the two above listed methods but tweaks it further by stretching with the movement. Translated sometimes as supple body connecting palm the forms and methods are bagua do just that. Unify the body so it can issue with whole body power. So the mud step of bagua stretches out with the front foot being pushed by the back foot, and then the back foot follows to close up your stance. Ideally the whole body moves as one, hence the whole body power aspect. Moving forward or issuing power in bagua (specifically Gao style bagua) one stretches out from finger tips to wrist, elbow, shoulder, back, waist, knee, ankle, and all that is between. This stretch is focused on stretching the tendon fascia, the stretch helps to connect the body unifying the power. Bagua will grab/abduct with it's hands and circle around attack from angles, hook and trap with foot work, and so on.