Western 10th Degrees. Fake or legit?

Discussion in 'The Great Debate' started by James Kovacich, Apr 25, 2005.

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  1. Jul 28, 2018 #221
    hoshin1600

    hoshin1600 Senior Master

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    I know or have known more than my share of 10th dans. The first was as fake as the day is long. The other hand full are or were 100% real. Yes they had a minimum of 50 years training uechi-ryu and in their 70's 80 and 90's
     
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  2. Jul 29, 2018 #222
    pdg

    pdg Senior Master

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    What about those of eastern descent who were born in the west?

    Or westerners who were born or raised in the east, or have lived there for xxx years?

    How about - would someone with an eastern father and western mother automatically be capable of legitimately outranking someone with a western father and eastern mother but neither would be able to equal someone with two eastern parents?



    I'm sure there's a word for making assumptions about somebody's authenticity or capability based on parentage or skin colour, but I really can't put my racism finger on it.
     
  3. Jul 29, 2018 #223
    gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    DV, the thread is 13 years old - most of the posters involved aren't active.
     
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  4. Jul 29, 2018 #224
    gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    I think the thought of it comes from the early days of the (Japanese) arts starting to gain traction in the West. At that time, the only highly experienced instructors were in Japan, so it made sense to talk about things in that context. If you trained in Japan, you generally got better instruction (more experienced instructors, more experienced training partners, no choke points in information, etc.). If you were promoted by a Japanese instructor, there was probably more consistency in quality. And most of the people doing those things were Japanese - because a bunch of them live in Japan (odd, that).

    Fast forward 20 years, and that makes a lot less sense. Today, with even more decades (and generations) of proliferation, plus the easy ways to exchange information, I don't see where it makes any sense, at all.
     
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  5. Jul 29, 2018 #225
    gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    @Tony Dismukes' rating on this reminded me that BJJ is a prime example of the issue. If a westerner with a high rank isn't legit, then there's not a single legit rank anywhere in BJJ. And theirs are among the more reliable ranks we could find (in meaning something specific and predictable).
     
  6. Jul 29, 2018 #226
    dvcochran

    dvcochran Master of Arts

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    I didn't mean it as any kind of ethnic slur or advantage. But I am of an era when the majority of the legit high ranking instructors were not American. I suppose in this day and age it can be used as a deceitful advantage. I haven't dived into the lineage of a great many styles. One American who really impressed me was Rusty Gray from a Kung Fu lineage with Wang Ziping. I have worked out with many higher ranking Americans in TKD but few could carry themselves the way the Korean GM's of my early days did. Of course I was more impressionable back then. I do think it is a rougher sled to pull for an American to gain the pinnacle or MA respect.
     
  7. Jul 30, 2018 #227
    pdg

    pdg Senior Master

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    I wasn't necessarily pointing directly at you ;)

    But the other comments do highlight how the term was sullied by people claiming master or GM ranks after a few years.

    Maybe 'master' could've been justified if they 'lived' it, just, maybe...

    People who started training before I was born may have a jaded view because of that?
     
  8. Jul 30, 2018 #228
    Buka

    Buka MT Moderator Staff Member

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    And then you have "Great Grandmaster" Fredrick J Villari who is a 12th Degree Black Belt.

    A 12th.
     
  9. Jul 30, 2018 #229
    gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    I just don't get the need for that many ranks.
     
  10. Jul 30, 2018 #230
    JR 137

    JR 137 Senior Master

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    To one-up the competition. Or in this case, two-up it. If you’re 10th dan and I want to somehow prove I’m better than you, I’ll claim 12th dan and let your students know how superior I am to you and everyone else.

    Quite simple, really. Yet quite pathetic.
     
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  11. Jul 30, 2018 #231
    dvcochran

    dvcochran Master of Arts

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    I didn't take any of it as directed at me. Credibility is an important issue for any school owner/instructor.
     
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