Western 10th Degrees. Fake or legit?

Discussion in 'The Great Debate' started by James Kovacich, Apr 25, 2005.

  1. hoshin1600

    hoshin1600 Senior Master

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    I know or have known more than my share of 10th dans. The first was as fake as the day is long. The other hand full are or were 100% real. Yes they had a minimum of 50 years training uechi-ryu and in their 70's 80 and 90's
     
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  2. pdg

    pdg Senior Master

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    What about those of eastern descent who were born in the west?

    Or westerners who were born or raised in the east, or have lived there for xxx years?

    How about - would someone with an eastern father and western mother automatically be capable of legitimately outranking someone with a western father and eastern mother but neither would be able to equal someone with two eastern parents?



    I'm sure there's a word for making assumptions about somebody's authenticity or capability based on parentage or skin colour, but I really can't put my racism finger on it.
     
  3. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    DV, the thread is 13 years old - most of the posters involved aren't active.
     
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  4. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    I think the thought of it comes from the early days of the (Japanese) arts starting to gain traction in the West. At that time, the only highly experienced instructors were in Japan, so it made sense to talk about things in that context. If you trained in Japan, you generally got better instruction (more experienced instructors, more experienced training partners, no choke points in information, etc.). If you were promoted by a Japanese instructor, there was probably more consistency in quality. And most of the people doing those things were Japanese - because a bunch of them live in Japan (odd, that).

    Fast forward 20 years, and that makes a lot less sense. Today, with even more decades (and generations) of proliferation, plus the easy ways to exchange information, I don't see where it makes any sense, at all.
     
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  5. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    @Tony Dismukes' rating on this reminded me that BJJ is a prime example of the issue. If a westerner with a high rank isn't legit, then there's not a single legit rank anywhere in BJJ. And theirs are among the more reliable ranks we could find (in meaning something specific and predictable).
     
  6. dvcochran

    dvcochran Grandmaster

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    I didn't mean it as any kind of ethnic slur or advantage. But I am of an era when the majority of the legit high ranking instructors were not American. I suppose in this day and age it can be used as a deceitful advantage. I haven't dived into the lineage of a great many styles. One American who really impressed me was Rusty Gray from a Kung Fu lineage with Wang Ziping. I have worked out with many higher ranking Americans in TKD but few could carry themselves the way the Korean GM's of my early days did. Of course I was more impressionable back then. I do think it is a rougher sled to pull for an American to gain the pinnacle or MA respect.
     
  7. pdg

    pdg Senior Master

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    I wasn't necessarily pointing directly at you ;)

    But the other comments do highlight how the term was sullied by people claiming master or GM ranks after a few years.

    Maybe 'master' could've been justified if they 'lived' it, just, maybe...

    People who started training before I was born may have a jaded view because of that?
     
  8. Buka

    Buka Sr. Grandmaster

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    And then you have "Great Grandmaster" Fredrick J Villari who is a 12th Degree Black Belt.

    A 12th.
     
  9. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    I just don't get the need for that many ranks.
     
  10. JR 137

    JR 137 Grandmaster

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    To one-up the competition. Or in this case, two-up it. If you’re 10th dan and I want to somehow prove I’m better than you, I’ll claim 12th dan and let your students know how superior I am to you and everyone else.

    Quite simple, really. Yet quite pathetic.
     
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  11. dvcochran

    dvcochran Grandmaster

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    I didn't take any of it as directed at me. Credibility is an important issue for any school owner/instructor.
     
  12. David Castro

    David Castro White Belt

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  13. David Castro

    David Castro White Belt

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    This is Dr. Castro to several posted discussions I've just read for the first time. These gentleman should have confronted me in person. I have never presented myself as a 10th Degree Black Belt ànd I've never been the best performer of kata. Moreso interested in techniques that worked. Anyhow, there will always be someone better. My credentials are legit. In 2004 I was a 6th Degree BB. And I never turned down an opportunity to train or randori. From 1998 to 2000, I taught kids under the MWR program at Camp Zama; 15 kids total. The class discontinued because MWR needed the space to support another requirement. Both I and the TKD instructor had to stop. As such, I asked mil & civ adults if they were interested. I trained eight adults from 2000 thru 2005. In 2004, without my knowledge, MWR added me to a demo list. MWR wanted my demo to be non traditional. Of course I was not prepared. The story of Okinawan sword makers was a true in history. Swords were prepared with temporary wooden hand grips. Japanese military would hassle sword makers in Okinawa during the war. When sword makers fought back they used the unfinished swords to defend themselves. I presented an old Okinawan kata although used electrical stun batons in attempt to sparkle the moment. Not sure what it looked like to the audience, but I was glad MWR liked it. There was much better demos then mine. And there was an unfortunate accident of more concern. When Master Onozaki kicked and broke a baseball bat a piece flew into the audience & injured a young boy. Back to these posted comments, these negative comments are unfounded. My credentials and rank are legit, my memberships are in good standing. I teach in Hawaii; unfortunately not at the moment until the COVID-19 Pandemic is cleared up. And I will continue teaching to the best of my ability.
     
  14. Buka

    Buka Sr. Grandmaster

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    Welcome to Martial Talk, David. :)123
     

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