Western 10th Degrees. Fake or legit?

Discussion in 'The Great Debate' started by James Kovacich, Apr 25, 2005.

  1. hoshin1600

    hoshin1600 Senior Master

    Joined:
    May 16, 2014
    Messages:
    2,646
    Likes Received:
    1,193
    Trophy Points:
    253
    I know or have known more than my share of 10th dans. The first was as fake as the day is long. The other hand full are or were 100% real. Yes they had a minimum of 50 years training uechi-ryu and in their 70's 80 and 90's
     
    • Like Like x 1
  2. pdg

    pdg Senior Master

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2018
    Messages:
    2,445
    Likes Received:
    639
    Trophy Points:
    213
    What about those of eastern descent who were born in the west?

    Or westerners who were born or raised in the east, or have lived there for xxx years?

    How about - would someone with an eastern father and western mother automatically be capable of legitimately outranking someone with a western father and eastern mother but neither would be able to equal someone with two eastern parents?



    I'm sure there's a word for making assumptions about somebody's authenticity or capability based on parentage or skin colour, but I really can't put my racism finger on it.
     
  3. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

    Top Poster Of Month

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2012
    Messages:
    16,504
    Likes Received:
    4,695
    Trophy Points:
    448
    Location:
    Hendersonville, NC
    DV, the thread is 13 years old - most of the posters involved aren't active.
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  4. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

    Top Poster Of Month

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2012
    Messages:
    16,504
    Likes Received:
    4,695
    Trophy Points:
    448
    Location:
    Hendersonville, NC
    I think the thought of it comes from the early days of the (Japanese) arts starting to gain traction in the West. At that time, the only highly experienced instructors were in Japan, so it made sense to talk about things in that context. If you trained in Japan, you generally got better instruction (more experienced instructors, more experienced training partners, no choke points in information, etc.). If you were promoted by a Japanese instructor, there was probably more consistency in quality. And most of the people doing those things were Japanese - because a bunch of them live in Japan (odd, that).

    Fast forward 20 years, and that makes a lot less sense. Today, with even more decades (and generations) of proliferation, plus the easy ways to exchange information, I don't see where it makes any sense, at all.
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Agree Agree x 1
  5. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

    Top Poster Of Month

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2012
    Messages:
    16,504
    Likes Received:
    4,695
    Trophy Points:
    448
    Location:
    Hendersonville, NC
    @Tony Dismukes' rating on this reminded me that BJJ is a prime example of the issue. If a westerner with a high rank isn't legit, then there's not a single legit rank anywhere in BJJ. And theirs are among the more reliable ranks we could find (in meaning something specific and predictable).
     
  6. dvcochran

    dvcochran 3rd Black Belt

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2017
    Messages:
    935
    Likes Received:
    199
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Location:
    Southeast
    I didn't mean it as any kind of ethnic slur or advantage. But I am of an era when the majority of the legit high ranking instructors were not American. I suppose in this day and age it can be used as a deceitful advantage. I haven't dived into the lineage of a great many styles. One American who really impressed me was Rusty Gray from a Kung Fu lineage with Wang Ziping. I have worked out with many higher ranking Americans in TKD but few could carry themselves the way the Korean GM's of my early days did. Of course I was more impressionable back then. I do think it is a rougher sled to pull for an American to gain the pinnacle or MA respect.
     
  7. pdg

    pdg Senior Master

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2018
    Messages:
    2,445
    Likes Received:
    639
    Trophy Points:
    213
    I wasn't necessarily pointing directly at you ;)

    But the other comments do highlight how the term was sullied by people claiming master or GM ranks after a few years.

    Maybe 'master' could've been justified if they 'lived' it, just, maybe...

    People who started training before I was born may have a jaded view because of that?
     
  8. Buka

    Buka Grandmaster

    • MartialTalk Mentor
    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2011
    Messages:
    8,047
    Likes Received:
    4,794
    Trophy Points:
    448
    Location:
    Maui
    And then you have "Great Grandmaster" Fredrick J Villari who is a 12th Degree Black Belt.

    A 12th.
     
  9. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

    Top Poster Of Month

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2012
    Messages:
    16,504
    Likes Received:
    4,695
    Trophy Points:
    448
    Location:
    Hendersonville, NC
    I just don't get the need for that many ranks.
     
  10. JR 137

    JR 137 Senior Master

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2015
    Messages:
    3,673
    Likes Received:
    2,065
    Trophy Points:
    403
    Location:
    In the dojo
    To one-up the competition. Or in this case, two-up it. If you’re 10th dan and I want to somehow prove I’m better than you, I’ll claim 12th dan and let your students know how superior I am to you and everyone else.

    Quite simple, really. Yet quite pathetic.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  11. dvcochran

    dvcochran 3rd Black Belt

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2017
    Messages:
    935
    Likes Received:
    199
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Location:
    Southeast
    I didn't take any of it as directed at me. Credibility is an important issue for any school owner/instructor.
     

Share This Page

Search tags for this page
is there any legit 10th dans in kyokushin
,

westerners with inflated rank in okinawan karate