Western 10th Degrees. Fake or legit?

Discussion in 'The Great Debate' started by James Kovacich, Apr 25, 2005.

  1. 47MartialMan

    47MartialMan Master of Arts

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    Well, back the topic, I dont care if someone is a 1st, 2nd, 3rd, whatever, if they have many years, and seem to be knowledgable, then perhaps they have something to teach and/or I may have something to learn.


    Although, I must admit, I will be a little more concerned/skeptical, or scrutinize someone claiming 8th, 9th, 10th, or special title.
     
  2. Bester

    Bester <font color=blue><B>Grand UberSoke, Sith-jutsu Ryu

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    Considering how long it should take to reach that level, I'm suspicious of anyone claiming high rank at a young age, moreso anyone claiming multiple high ranks at young ages.

    And "founders" who are under 40, or who have taken an existing system and only changed 5-10% are tripley suspect.

    Lets be blunt: Founding 1 art in a lifetime is rare. Founding 2 rarer. More than 3, well, I'm in serious doubt. Now, I've seen a few folks, but often those are "revisions" not "all new". Ironically enough, those individuals seem to avoid "10ths" while alive, and they are often awarded after death to honor them. That, I have no problem with.

    Its that 25 year old "expert" with a "sokeship" and 10 black belts, who founds his own system, with minimal to no "practical" experience. Like I want to learn combat arts from a glitter-dancer who plays with hollow aluminium toys at tournys. :barf:
     
  3. 47MartialMan

    47MartialMan Master of Arts

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    Good point.....understood
     
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  4. Matt Stone

    Matt Stone Master of Arts

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    But I think the point is that the years from 5 - 18 are questionable in terms of training impact... The gangly pre-pubescent and the pimply faced teen aren't really emotionally, physically, nor mentall mature enough to really "get" what they are being taught. So, at least in my book, it is the years from 18 on that really matter.

    I started training at 16. I am 36 now, so that racks up 20 years, right? Sure, but those first two years I really had no clue as to what I was doing... I mimicked things, but it was hollow, empty, devoid of "feeling." For myself, I only really count the last 15 years as useful years, and probably only 10 of those as good training years (the other years my training was to sporadic and too unfocused to be of any great physical benefit).

    How many people are willing to admit that kind of time line?
     
  5. Aegis

    Aegis Purple Belt

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    Matt: My own experience shows similarities with what you were saying, though obviously I haven't been in the arts as long as you. My Judo training from about 11 to 19 really left very little lasting impression on me due to the short training sessions only being once a week, and me only being a kid at the time. My real training started when I got to university and started training jujutsu at least 6 hours a week, which I've tried to stick with ever since except through illness or injury.
     
  6. arnisador

    arnisador Sr. Grandmaster

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    I wouldn't say the years from 18, but I agree with the general idea--that unless you're on the right side of puberty, say 14, you're not getting all that much from it.
     
  7. James Kovacich

    James Kovacich Senior Master

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    I don't disagree. Rank is easier to get from org. to the next. But it was Royce Gracies rank that was being questioned. It was implied that the high rank was easy for Gracie Family and hard for everyone else. The brothers almost all started after learning to walk and thats when they start their kids too.
     
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  8. 47MartialMan

    47MartialMan Master of Arts

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    Me-
     
  9. Matt Stone

    Matt Stone Master of Arts

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    I don't know that much about the Gracies... Mainly because I don't care. They are becoming victims of their own hype, I think, because once upon a time they were this small Brazilian family with an impressive record of alleged undefeatability (is that even a word? It is now...). I say "alleged" because from what I recall, early on they said that a lot of their fights were "in the street," a phrase that has little to no merit when discussing someone's fight record... Too easy for even McDojo Joe to say "I've fought over 100 fights 'in the street' and I've never been defeated." Yeah, whatever.

    Anyway, while they certainly have a leg up on folks when it comes to training (what with having it surround them 24/7), that doesn't mean that they should necessarily make rank any faster than someone else. If they do, especially if some outside student who trains like a demon doesn't, it will inevitably reflect poorly on them. Besides, if someone wants to take issue with them, no matter what they do that person will find something about it to cry about...

    Anymore, especially now that I'm "in the wilderness" again without a school of my own to train in for about 8000 miles, I'm just going to focus on my own training... Others can do what they like. They'll be found out in the end.
     
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  10. 47MartialMan

    47MartialMan Master of Arts

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    Big titles and high rank are for recognition. What are small titles and lower ranks for?
     
  11. RRouuselot

    RRouuselot Master of Arts

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    Matt,

    I am trying to nail down some dates to go over to the ROK.....we can train then
     
  12. Akashiro Tamaya

    Akashiro Tamaya Green Belt

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    Who knows ... :idunno:
     
  13. 47MartialMan

    47MartialMan Master of Arts

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    Hmmnnn,

    Perhaps big titles and high rank are big egos and people who are high?
     
  14. TimoS

    TimoS Master of Arts

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    Definetely there are some who fit into this category, but since there are obviously some who don't (I would like to say majority, but can't be sure), I don't think that that is a fair description
     
  15. evenflow1121

    evenflow1121 2nd Black Belt

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    Depends where the system was founded. If the system is a Western based then I dont see much of a problem, if the system is eastern based, then there may be an issue.
     
  16. bushidomartialarts

    bushidomartialarts Senior Master

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    theoretically, you're legit if you're promoted by your organization.

    realistically, there's a bunch of idjits running around who formed an organization so they'd get promoted to high rank.

    practically, i take any rank above 5 with a heavy grain of salt.

    personally, i wonder why these people bother to promote themselves. shodan is hard enough to live up to.
     
  17. Jukato

    Jukato White Belt

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  18. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    You are replying to a thread that is 13 years old.
     
  19. JR 137

    JR 137 Senior Master

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    It’s not THAT old... if it’s a single malt scotch, anyway.
     
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  20. dvcochran

    dvcochran Senior Master

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