Website on Katanas

[drop bear]

You beat me to this one. It seems it should be possible with new alloys and CNC production. If it's not, there's clearly something I don't know about the issue. Maybe there's just not enough demand for the mass production that would bring the cost down.

Remember what I said about martial arts progress being driven by its practitioners not it's instructors?

This is not one of those martial arts.

Chris flips an absolute wig over this subject. So where I could go to the hardware store and buy an axe or machete (Any big dangerous sharp thing) and be able to use that for all the practical purposes they get used for. A sword has some sort of different mechanic that prevents you from learning any sort of usable technique without the exact correct instruction and equipment.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Gerry, there is already great production in Japan with quality. Really spending some good money on a tool you can practice with for a life time is not that big of a deal. Worse is spending money over and over again not getting the highest quality.

I think PGSMITH hit the parts I was missing. Especially the wrap. I suppose someone could come up with an alternative that wouldn't be as finicky, but it wouldn't be the same - and with swordwork being inherently traditional, I don't think that'd be popular.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Remember what I said about martial arts progress being driven by its practitioners not it's instructors?

This is not one of those martial arts.

Chris flips an absolute wig over this subject. So where I could go to the hardware store and buy an axe or machete (Any big dangerous sharp thing) and be able to use that for all the practical purposes they get used for. A sword has some sort of different mechanic that prevents you from learning any sort of usable technique without the exact correct instruction and equipment.

I think a large part of that is the inherent traditionalism in sword study. It's not something anyone is doing for everyday defensive use. So, unlike FMA, there's not a need to evolve - the traditional weapon (with all its idiosyncrasies - good and bad) is well suited to the study.

 

[drop bear]

I think a large part of that is the inherent traditionalism in sword study. It's not something anyone is doing for everyday defensive use. So, unlike FMA, there's not a need to evolve - the traditional weapon (with all its idiosyncrasies - good and bad) is well suited to the study.

Yeah. But again we have these two discussions.

One is this is the way I train because it makes me happy. Because I am Achieving something in relation to the way I train.

This is the way you should train because. Well I just freaking don't know. I mean If you want to get a mat in half you do not need ten years of training and a thousand dollar sword.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yeah. But again we have these two discussions.

One is this is the way I train because it makes me happy. Because I am Achieving something in relation to the way I train.

This is the way you should train because. Well I just freaking don't know. I mean If you want to get a mat in half you do not need ten years of training and a thousand dollar sword.

Agreed. If you just want to do tatami cutting, you can do that without the training. Same with a punch. If you want to defend yourself against tatami (competition or street), you can get better with some training - probably considerably less than 10 years.

If you want to learn traditional Japanese swordsmanship, there's a lot more to it than just cutting. From what I understand, there's an expectation that the swordsman will also have some expert knowledge about the weapon, and there's probably some deep tradition involved, as well (there was in a lot of truly traditional Samurai training). I don't know where the 10 years comes in, but that's my ignorance. I can get someone competent in NGA basics (if that's all I teach) in 2-3 years (similar time commitment to the fight prep you guys do). If I'm going to get into the deeper principles (which give folks something to work on long-term, alongside the basics), learning the art takes much longer, especially if they are training to be an expert in the techniques.

 

[BrendanF]

Remember what I said about martial arts progress being driven by its practitioners not it's instructors?

This is not one of those martial arts.

Chris flips an absolute wig over this subject. So where I could go to the hardware store and buy an axe or machete (Any big dangerous sharp thing) and be able to use that for all the practical purposes they get used for. A sword has some sort of different mechanic that prevents you from learning any sort of usable technique without the exact correct instruction and equipment.

Yes - traditional Japanese swordsmanship has multiple aspects that just can't be deduced from picking something sharp up and being "able to use it for all the practical purposes they get used for."

Some of those things relate directly to the way one moves with the "big dangerous sharp thing" but some have to do with other cultural or historical factors. How can you know exactly how to move or cut at the weak points of traditional Japanese armour, or which targets would be exposed by an opponent thrusting a spear in a specific way... without a connection to that method of fighting? There are countless pieces of information like this which can be accessed by training in a school which still teaches them.

Chris' reply was absolutely spot on. The website linked in the OP is completely useless for the purposes the OP asked about. The site 'reviews' a few different cheap Chinese production blades, which may or may not be suitable for some form of practise. The site provides no real information on the swords, and as Chris noted, reads like it was written by someone with no real experience or knowledge on the subject.

To the OP - as others advised - talk to your sensei about where and what to get. Forget the $50 iaito, forget "steel may be better". Get a decent iaito, like most every other student of iai does. It may cost a couple of hundred instead of fifty, but it will be worth it if you continue.

Iaido Sword - Iaido Equipment - Tozando

Iaito & Related

These are both good suppliers.

 

[Chris Parker]

Okay, this might not be too gentle...

Iaitos and machetes are two different things.

Yes, they are. That was JKS' point... what you're suggesting (a "$60 steel 'iaito'") shares far more in common with the heavy, bludgeoning hacking tool that is a machete than with a Japanese sword, or anything actually applicable for Iai practice.

Comparing them would be apples and oranges.

Yes, it would be. That was JKS' point... trying to think that the item you were talking about was similar to an actual iaito is like suggesting that an apple and an orange are the same thing, based purely on highly superficial and general similarities.

Even the best iaito will not perform like a machete and vice versa.

And you don't want them to. They are different tools for different purposes and different usages. JKS' point was that what you were suggesting was as poorly suited as a machete... not that there is any actual similarity in usage. This is what I was talking about earlier... you grab one or two aspects, and miss the actual message you're being given, and make statements and draw conclusions that are deeply flawed in the first place... hence the idea that you should stop thinking, and simply follow exactly what your instructor tells you.

I really don't see the need for an iaito to be super high quality since its not used for cutting or for any contact drills but I will talk to my instructor about this.

The fact that you are saying that you can't see the need for an iaito to be of "super high quality" (and, to be clear, no-one has suggested anything of the kind to you), as you think such a thing (a "super high quality iaito") is only needed for certain types of training (cutting, contact etc) shows that, really, you don't know anything about this subject yet.

A quality iaito is needed so you can practice Iaido safely. It's so you don't get repetitive strain injury by using something too heavy, too poorly balanced, with a mis-shapen tsuka leading to a poor grip, a tsuka-ito too loose not allowing proper te no uchi, poorly formed bo-hi leading to a lack of tachi-kaze to check your hasuji, and so on.
A quality iaito is needed so your tool doesn't fall to pieces, in the tsuka-ito falling off, the tsuka splitting, the mekugi breaking, the blade not fitting properly into the tsuka (which can lead to the mekugi breaking, and the blade flying out), your saya being poorly fitted, leading to too much muscle being applied, forcing the nuki-uchi, and splitting the saya itself.
A quality iaito is needed so you can can properly learn and perform the techniques, so you can learn how to properly take care of the weapon, how to judge a good balance and weight, and more.

It has nothing at all to do with being used for contact drills (you use bokuto for that), or for cutting (you use a shinken for that). It's so you have the right tool for the study of Iaido.

Given that the primary factors to consider are weight and balance (as opposed to structural strength, quality of steel, edge, etc, etc), is there any reason why someone couldn't manufacture a properly weighted and balanced iato for $50?

Aside from Pauls comments, see all the reasons listed above for a "quality iaito"... those aspects and traits simply aren't found in the budget, cheap items being asked about.

Really, these are specialised items. They require a certain expertise to make. That expertise costs... it's not just the blade here, you're also paying for the craftmanship of the fittings (the koshirae), the saya, the tsuka and tsuka-ito, and more. They all need to work together, and be of sufficient quality to be suitable for the practice. None of this craftsmanship is cheap...

Remember what I said about martial arts progress being driven by its practitioners not it's instructors?

What you need to understand is that your view is, frankly, completely irrelevant and out of place here. You're talking about modern arts, dominantly sports ones... this is nothing like that.

This is not one of those martial arts.

No kidding. And yet you insist on applying your completely irrelevant set of values to an art you don't study, don't have any interest in studying, have any knowledge of the items used, the development of the art, the training involved, or anything else. I do recommend you stop that.

Chris flips an absolute wig over this subject.

No, he gets frustrated that you insist on not listening when the actual training methods and requirements are explained to you (ad nauseam), and continue to mis apply your own views. And here you do exactly that again.

So where I could go to the hardware store and buy an axe or machete (Any big dangerous sharp thing) and be able to use that for all the practical purposes they get used for. A sword has some sort of different mechanic that prevents you from learning any sort of usable technique without the exact correct instruction and equipment.

You get that the idea of training in swordsmanship is to study sword, yeah? Not just hack into things, cut objects (which is done as a form of training, not as an ideal or aim in and of itself), or anything you think is the actual aim. So no, you cannot go to a hardware store and buy anything to use for all the "practical purposes"... as you have no idea whatsoever what those purposes are, and can only see the simplest, least relevant, and most superficial aspect of using a blade. You, bluntly, have no idea, and your opinion holds absolutely no value or weight.

I think PGSMITH hit the parts I was missing. Especially the wrap. I suppose someone could come up with an alternative that wouldn't be as finicky, but it wouldn't be the same - and with swordwork being inherently traditional, I don't think that'd be popular.

There are a number of "modern material" training swords around... but they are largely shunned by the JSA community, with them being more popular with "backyard cutters" and so forth... really, when it comes down to it, we train in a traditional sword system to understand that traditional sword system. Not to be the most bad-*** sword fighter on the block... as a result, we will always tend towards traditional in our weaponry choices... but that is as much a practical reason as it is just "following tradition".

I think a large part of that is the inherent traditionalism in sword study. It's not something anyone is doing for everyday defensive use. So, unlike FMA, there's not a need to evolve - the traditional weapon (with all its idiosyncrasies - good and bad) is well suited to the study.

That's more like it. Yep.

Yeah. But again we have these two discussions.

No, we don't. We have a thread where Iaido is being discussed, and you're coming in with a completely irrelevant discussion of the simple act of hacking through a target as if it's the same thing. It's not.

Let me see if I can put this in a way you can follow. If you're discussing the various competition rules for MMA and BJJ, looking at the training methods for each, covering various uses of the guard and it's variants, applications against striking, escapes from chokes, and so on, and we kept coming over to tell you that all you are learning to do is stomp people's head into the ground, because that's the only part of it that we relate to (the overt violent image, rather than the skill and tactics involved). That's how you're coming across here... taking a small aspect that isn't even part of the study of Iaido (cutting is a separate study), and only focusing on the result being something is in two parts instead of one... missing entirely the actual training, the reasons for it, and even what is important when it comes to the tiny part you're looking at,

If you're not willing to accept that what you think is the only "practical purpose" of training in sword (cutting things, not even cutting things with proper sword mechanics), then I suggest you simply leave these threads alone. If you can finally see this, then you'll understand why you get the reception you do... and why a number of the sword guys have you on ignore.

One is this is the way I train because it makes me happy. Because I am Achieving something in relation to the way I train.

Which is completely besides the point. Training in a particular art is about training in that art... not just "I do whatever I want to do because I don't care about doing things properly, and only want to serve my own ego". So, really... completely irrelevant.

This is the way you should train because.

Christ... you train the way the art says because you want to train the art. You really can't get that?

Well I just freaking don't know.

No, I suppose you can't...

I mean If you want to get a mat in half you do not need ten years of training and a thousand dollar sword.

Okay, number one... the idea of just wanting to cut a mat in half is not anything to do with the topic or with the idea of studying Iaido. Second, no one said you need 10 years of training either... you're making up what you've been told by us again. Thirdly, again, no one has said anything about a thousand dollar sword. Fourthly, that guy has terrible technique.

The most important thing, and I can't really believe I have to spell this out to you, for the study of Iaido you need to study Iaido. Get your ideas out of your head, as you don't have a clue of what's being discussed. Your personal value and lack of understanding of this art and it's ideals are of no importance or use.

 

[jks9199]

Iaitos and machetes are two different things. Comparing them would be apples and oranges. Even the best iaito will not perform like a machete and vice versa. I really don't see the need for an iaito to be super high quality since its not used for cutting or for any contact drills but I will talk to my instructor about this.

That's my point. A machete isn't a high quality blade. You don't spend $200+ on one. It's designed to use and beat up. An iaito is a carefully designed substitute for a real blade; it handles and feels much like the real thing, so if you want quality, it's not going to be cheap. Why spend the money on a "fake trainer"... Depends on why you're training. The boken is the cheap substitute... and there is probably a reason why your instructor wants you to transition from it fairly quickly. You might ask him...

 

[jks9199]

Chris flips an absolute wig over this subject. So where I could go to the hardware store and buy an axe or machete (Any big dangerous sharp thing) and be able to use that for all the practical purposes they get used for. A sword has some sort of different mechanic that prevents you from learning any sort of usable technique without the exact correct instruction and equipment.

If you wanted to learn to use a battle axe, you would not go to the hardware store and buy a splitting maul or a woodsman's axe for cutting a tree down. You'd buy a battle axe, balanced and shaped as a fighting implement. If you want to learn the Japanese art of drawing a sword known as iaido -- you buy or use a bokken shaped for that purpose, an iaito made to practice with, and eventually a shinken or live sword. Would you train MMA with a set of kid's play boxing gloves?

 

[PhotonGuy]

That's my point. A machete isn't a high quality blade. You don't spend $200+ on one. It's designed to use and beat up. An iaito is a carefully designed substitute for a real blade; it handles and feels much like the real thing, so if you want quality, it's not going to be cheap. Why spend the money on a "fake trainer"... Depends on why you're training. The boken is the cheap substitute... and there is probably a reason why your instructor wants you to transition from it fairly quickly. You might ask him...

That depends, they do make really high end machetes that go for way more than $200 such as this one Nephrite Jade Machete Knife Russian Siberian Stone

Anyway, iaitos and machetes are different tools for different jobs. You do make a point though about getting a good quality iaito so that it will be good for the job its designed for. I just don't want to spend more money than what's necessary. As I said earlier I will talk to my instructor, if I have to break the bank a bit to get a good iaito well, that's better than as another poster earlier said to continuously spend money on junk which in the long run can add up to more than what would be spent on a good quality iaito. You don't want to be penny wise pound foolish.

 

[PhotonGuy]

If you wanted to learn to use a battle axe, you would not go to the hardware store and buy a splitting maul or a woodsman's axe for cutting a tree down. You'd buy a battle axe, balanced and shaped as a fighting implement. If you want to learn the Japanese art of drawing a sword known as iaido -- you buy or use a bokken shaped for that purpose, an iaito made to practice with, and eventually a shinken or live sword. Would you train MMA with a set of kid's play boxing gloves?

Based on drop bear's posts and the responses he's gotten I believe this is what he doesn't understand. Drop bear this message is mostly for you, there is much much more to swordsmanship than just cutting stuff. Even I know that and Im just starting out. And even when you get into cutting that in and of itself can be quite broad. Cutting tatami mats is different than cutting through flesh and bone which is different than cutting against other materials such as armor, ect. If all you're interested in is cutting stuff than you will do fine with an axe or machete that you get at a hardware store. If you're interested in learning swordsmanship than its an entirely different story.

 

[drop bear]

If you're not willing to accept that what you think is the only "practical purpose" of training in sword (cutting things, not even cutting things with proper sword mechanics), then I suggest you simply leave these threads alone. If you can finally see this, then you'll understand why you get the reception you do... and why a number of the sword guys have you on ignore.

So he cut the mat in half wrong?

This is the basic idea you don't understand and never will about sword work. And martial arts in general. And why you will always be wrong when it comes to these discussions.

 

[drop bear]

If you wanted to learn to use a battle axe, you would not go to the hardware store and buy a splitting maul or a woodsman's axe for cutting a tree down. You'd buy a battle axe, balanced and shaped as a fighting implement. If you want to learn the Japanese art of drawing a sword known as iaido -- you buy or use a bokken shaped for that purpose, an iaito made to practice with, and eventually a shinken or live sword. Would you train MMA with a set of kid's play boxing gloves?

Yes you would train MMA in a child's boxing gloves. On a sand pit rather than a mat. Or even in a gi rather than a rash vest. The important thing about learning a skill is performing that skill. Not how perfectly suited the environment is.

A wood cutter is further on the way to being an axman or even a swordsman than most people think.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yes you would train MMA in a child's boxing gloves. On a sand pit rather than a mat. Or even in a gi rather than a rash vest. The important thing about learning a skill is performing that skill. Not how perfectly suited the environment is.

A wood cutter is further on the way to being an axman or even a swordsman than most people think.

I doubt an average woodcutter has much developed the ability to defend, strike while moving, strike a moving target, etc.

 

[BrendanF]

What are you trying to convince people of, here?

That you know exactly nothing about the topic, and beyond that, steadfastly refuse to listen to those who do?

Your argument is presumably that, if the mat gets cut, the form is fine? Have you never seen a TKD or Karate board breaking demo that displayed horrible form? But the wood still ended up broken right? Therefore they are great TKD/Karate fighters?

Or maybe breaking boards horribly has about as much to do with karate fighting as does chopping mats poorly with a machete and swordsmanship.

 

[drop bear]

I doubt an average woodcutter has much developed the ability to defend, strike while moving, strike a moving target, etc.

Than a person who regularly sword fights.

Someone who chops a mat in half? Would be a much more even competition.

 

[Flying Crane]

I doubt an average woodcutter has much developed the ability to defend, strike while moving, strike a moving target, etc.

Take a wood-cutter's axe and try an experiment: swing it horizontally and on various angles up and downwards, do it quickly and repeatedly, and with quick recovery and directional changes.

Pretty difficult, eh? Wears you out in a hurry, yes?

That is because a wood-chopping axe is meant for chopping wood. Usually that means up-and-down motion. The axe is heavy, the better to cut the wood.

If cuts are done horizontally or on angles, then they are slow and methodical because again, the axe is heavy.

A wood-cutting axe is too heavy for combat. It lacks quickness and dexterity, other than for an extraordinarily strong fellow.

I was in the Home Depot one day, a couple was looking at axes and the fellow commented that it would be a great weapon for the zombie apocalypse.

I beg to differ. It is way too heavy, and is a horrible weapon.

These things are not all the same.

I have to chuckle at movies like The Hobbit, where the dwarves are carrying axes with massive heads. They look like they would weigh in at 40 pounds or more. Nobody could fight with such a thing. It is rediculous.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Than a person who regularly sword fights.

Someone who chops a mat in half? Would be a much more even competition.

Assuming cutting mats in half is the entirety of swordsmanship. Which it isn't. It's a tiny part of the study.

 

[BrendanF]

It's not even a tiny part of many people's sword training.

 

[drop bear]

Assuming cutting mats in half is the entirety of swordsmanship. Which it isn't. It's a tiny part of the study.

The guy cutting mats in half is further along the path to swordsmanship than the guy still choosing his sword.