Weapon based sparring

Anarax

Master Black Belt
Joined
Aug 16, 2017
Messages
1,022
Reaction score
377
Location
New Mexico
I think there is a difference between training and then coming up with a ruleset that allows you to do it in competition. In training it is relatively easy to acknowledge when you got hit on an afterblow or recognize that even if you were fractionally faster the other guys shot would have landed as well. Our general policy is that any trade is a bad trade, we tend to emphasize "blade based" sparring because it tends to be more technical than stick based, I find that is easier to go from bladed to stick assumptions rather than the other way around. My own group uses padded sticks for beginners and light rattan for my more advanced guys.

I really hate the WEKAF approach, great for cardio and hitting hard and not much else.

Obviously I am a fan of the DB approach, though the Gatherings are usually "this is a stick" and we use bigger sticks than your average FMA school to make rattan actually useful as an impact weapon. When other weapons are used more care is taken. See this highlight reel as an example, it has a lot more sword in it than other reels:
This isn't a ruleset, it is an acknowledgement that we aren't actually trying to kill each other, literally the main rule is: "be friends at the end of the day." The caveat is that we can still be friends if I break something of you as long as it wasn't malicious, and hopefully it was something unimportant like a finger, becasue that is just the cost of playing hard.

For a competition format I really like what some of our area HEMA groups are using, which is a stop action tournament but has provisions for afterblows and double hits. Double hits are really frowned upon and has a highly negative influence on the scoring. The ruleset that these groups use are from CombatCon. 2016 Tournament Rules - CombatCon

WOW, this is the first time I watched their 2017 video and I really liked what I saw. They have really cleaned a lot of it up and a lot the participants look like they actually train in weaponry. The only thing I thought was excessive were the repeated blows to the back of the head and neck with the weapons and the 3 sections staff was a little hard to watch. Other than that they've really improved on just about everything
 

Blindside

Grandmaster
Founding Member
Joined
Oct 29, 2001
Messages
5,175
Reaction score
849
Location
Kennewick, WA
I think we are starting to go around in circles at this point, you find the risks not worth it, I am quite fine with the risks. Can we agree to disagree?

The risk must always be comparable to what's a stake. If I'm defending my life or someone else's life, then yes it is worth it. Going to a gathering and risking permanent injury so I feel like I accomplished something isn't worth it to me. I think sparring hard with highly trained guys at my school or another school is more structured and there's more to be gained from doing so. The only challenge from achieving the same thing you're saying you get at the gathering is escalating the sparring to the point where the adrenaline starts flowing. However; I can see how you being the instructor at your school makes this more difficult given your students can't press you to that point.

This is going to sound bad but I have had a hard time finding guys of my level that are willing to play hard. (I should note that I am not some sort of combat god, I am 5'6", 45, and not in the best shape of my life.) Before I started doing DBs I actually tried calling most of the FMA schools in a three state area and basically said in the nicest possible way "hey, I am sick of fighting my guys, do you guys do any light armor sparring? The silence was defeaning, seriously a whole bunch of "not interested" or "we don't do that." I really tried to make sure that it didn't come across as a challenge but guys didn't seem to want to play. After doing DBs and through that making the right contacts and figured out which schools were actually producing fighters we were able to start our own not-a-Dog-Brothers-Gathering to introduce people to low armor stick fighting. Plugging Warrior Tipon-Tipon: Warrior Tipon Tipon

This is not DB level, the only injuries in three years have been 5 stitches, one flash KO and a bunch of scrapes and stick hickies. It is a big benefit to my students but it doesn't do much for me. And still finding fighters is hard, we send out many invites every year, the participation fee is $10, and it is in a major metropolitan area, and most schools just never seem to find the time or have available fighters.

I'm glad you haven't sustained great injuries attending, but you have been very fortunate. You sound more experienced than a lot of the guys there, so I'm sure that's played a significant factor in you avoiding serious injury. I've seen horrific injuries in their videos and those are just the visible ones. Getting cracked in the head with a stick at full force affects your brain and motor skills, it's not only the enormous open gash the stick leaves behind. You only need a handful(no pun intended) of severe strikes like that to have lasting effects from it.

I will be the first to say that there is a lot of marketing push how extreme the DBs are. "If it bleeds, it leads" seems to be a popular sentiment in most of the highlight vids, so I understand why you have the impression that you do.
 

Blindside

Grandmaster
Founding Member
Joined
Oct 29, 2001
Messages
5,175
Reaction score
849
Location
Kennewick, WA
WOW, this is the first time I watched their 2017 video and I really liked what I saw. They have really cleaned a lot of it up and a lot the participants look like they actually train in weaponry. The only thing I thought was excessive were the repeated blows to the back of the head and neck with the weapons and the 3 sections staff was a little hard to watch. Other than that they've really improved on just about everything

The level hasn't changed, what the editor chose to focus on was different.
 

Anarax

Master Black Belt
Joined
Aug 16, 2017
Messages
1,022
Reaction score
377
Location
New Mexico
Before I started doing DBs I actually tried calling most of the FMA schools in a three state area and basically said in the nicest possible way "hey, I am sick of fighting my guys, do you guys do any light armor sparring? The silence was defeaning, seriously a whole bunch of "not interested" or "we don't do that."
Was this recently?
 

Blindside

Grandmaster
Founding Member
Joined
Oct 29, 2001
Messages
5,175
Reaction score
849
Location
Kennewick, WA
Wait I'm a little confused, you mean you had your own non dog brothers gathering? And you have also attended DB gatherings as well?

Myself and another guy started promoting a stickfighting event that is not affiliated with the Dog Brothers, which we call the Warrior Tipon-Tipon. I have attended 5 DB Gatherings.
 

Anarax

Master Black Belt
Joined
Aug 16, 2017
Messages
1,022
Reaction score
377
Location
New Mexico
6 or 7 years ago or so, before I started going to Gatherings.

I ask because FMA has really spread a lot in the past 5 years. You might want to try searching for new schools that have popped up in the past few years.
 

Blindside

Grandmaster
Founding Member
Joined
Oct 29, 2001
Messages
5,175
Reaction score
849
Location
Kennewick, WA
I ask because FMA has really spread a lot in the past 5 years. You might want to try searching for new schools that have popped up in the past few years.

Totally agree, which is why I send out something like 40+ emails/social media contacts/phone calls every year to every FMA group I can find within a reasonable distance of Seattle to come play at the Tipon-Tipon. Still trying to grow it.

Finding sparring partners is hard, there was a full Dog Brother in Portland who looked for five years to find sparring partners beyond his immediate instructor and only had two guys ever respond. Those two guys were my students. :D Admittedly he was the opposite of me, young, ripped, and scary. :D
 

Tony Dismukes

MT Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Nov 11, 2005
Messages
7,576
Reaction score
7,611
Location
Lexington, KY
I'm getting the information from the videos their own organization edits and uploads. I'm sharing what I've seen in their videos, anyone is welcome to go and watch them and tell me I wrong in my injury assessment. DB are honest and upfront about the risk involved in their gatherings and don't underplay what it is that they do. They seem to give you a clear picture in the video on what to expect, as far as intensity and injury. They usually go in with the camera to give the watcher an idea how severe the injuries are.
I get the impression that the Dog Brothers make a point of showing what sort of injuries are possible so as to discourage unprepared people from imitating that sort of practice. (Don't try this at home, kids!) Highlight videos from a given gathering will show only some of the matches but all of the significant injuries, making it look like the odds of injury are higher than they are.

(Lamont, please correct me if I am wrong about this.)
 

Blindside

Grandmaster
Founding Member
Joined
Oct 29, 2001
Messages
5,175
Reaction score
849
Location
Kennewick, WA
I get the impression that the Dog Brothers make a point of showing what sort of injuries are possible so as to discourage unprepared people from imitating that sort of practice. (Don't try this at home, kids!) Highlight videos from a given gathering will show only some of the matches but all of the significant injuries, making it look like the odds of injury are higher than they are.

(Lamont, please correct me if I am wrong about this.)

I am not sure the motives are as noble as discouraging people from doing it as much as a "look how badass we are" marketing end of things. But the latter part of your post is right on, you can just about count on every bleeder making it onto a highlight reel. I think they are moving away from that in the last couple of years, the 2017 Tribal highlight definately has a different feel to it.
 

Anarax

Master Black Belt
Joined
Aug 16, 2017
Messages
1,022
Reaction score
377
Location
New Mexico
I get the impression that the Dog Brothers make a point of showing what sort of injuries are possible so as to discourage unprepared people from imitating that sort of practice. (Don't try this at home, kids!) Highlight videos from a given gathering will show only some of the matches but all of the significant injuries, making it look like the odds of injury are higher than they are.

(Lamont, please correct me if I am wrong about this.)

I agree some might misinterpret the injury ratio. However; when I watch the videos I make note about how many people are there and the amount/severity of injuries. Even with that taken into consideration it's still something to be concerned about. I can't say with 100% certainty what the Dog Brothers intentions are for putting the injuries in the videos, but they seem like good genuine guys. Editing out the injuries, at least the severe ones may seem dishonest to them. There's no reason why putting the injuries into the videos can't be both, discouraging the ones who shouldn't do it and entice those that have a taste for it
 

Tony Dismukes

MT Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Nov 11, 2005
Messages
7,576
Reaction score
7,611
Location
Lexington, KY
I just watched the DB Euro Gathering 2016 highlights and I found it amusing that with all the matches involving full contact sticks to the head, punches, kicks, knees, elbows, and throws on a hard floor the one time Marc Denny told someone to be more careful was when the fighter was applying a heel hook.

It's true, heel hooks are dangerous and you should be careful when applying them in sparring. I just found it interesting that they were regarded as a higher concern than full power shots with a heavy stick.
 

Anarax

Master Black Belt
Joined
Aug 16, 2017
Messages
1,022
Reaction score
377
Location
New Mexico
I just watched the DB Euro Gathering 2016 highlights and I found it amusing that with all the matches involving full contact sticks to the head, punches, kicks, knees, elbows, and throws on a hard floor the one time Marc Denny told someone to be more careful was when the fighter was applying a heel hook.

It's true, heel hooks are dangerous and you should be careful when applying them in sparring. I just found it interesting that they were regarded as a higher concern than full power shots with a heavy stick.

I thought the same thing, especially considering the guy on the ground was kicking him in the face and cracking him in the arm with the stick. I think the guy standing responded appropriately considering the circumstances. However; when the other guys lost their fencing masks or gloves no time was called nor any warning given, they just continued striking each other.
 

Langenschwert

Master Black Belt
Joined
Apr 12, 2007
Messages
1,023
Reaction score
353
Location
Calgary, AB, Canada
Interesting thread.

The main thing to consider when using any kind of sparring rules (armed or otherwise) is "what are we trying to accomplish?" Secondly, "how can we accomplish that with the optimal balance of realism (whatever that means in your context) and safety?" We all have jobs to go to the next day.

Any set of sparring rules are going to be an abstraction when compared to an earnest encounter. That's why it can be useful to change the rules from time to time. Ideally, regardless of the rules, the best fighters should come out on top. If the goal is "hit the opponent on the left side of the torso while hopping on one leg", then the best fighter should be able to adapt to the game and do that. Look up "Ringen im Grublein".

Interestingly enough, historically the rules for weapon tournaments were strangely abstract, and these were people who were in a position to have to use their skills for real. Modern HEMA tournaments don't look anything like their historical counterparts.

Sparring rules should a least some of the time, maximally reward the techniques favoured by the system. You reverse engineer the rules to give you the results you want to see.
 

Latest Discussions

Top