Weapon and Multiple Attacker Defense

[MJS]

Fair enough. Of course, everything is circumstantial, and there are no exact rules to follow. I'd like to offer a scenario to continue this discussion, so we can perhaps drill down into some of the details on different people's approaches, and more specifically on the use of one or two hands.

The attack is a classic prison shanking, someone looking to run into you hard and fast, raising a knife, screwdriver, etc. into your belly with repeated thrusts. He's coming in like a freight train with enough force to poke your spine through your small intestines, and he wants to make a pin cushion out of you, drop the weapon, and keep going.

This is not an easy attack to deal with. For the sake of the discussion, assume the following: 1) you see it coming, 2) you're in a bad area with others around, but who aren't necessarily attacking you at the moment but warrant your caution, 3) you have no time to do anything but deal with the attacker, 4) there's nothing nearby to use as a weapon, 5) you are on asphalt or concrete, 6) you're alone, 7) he appears to you that his intent is to kill, 8) running is not an option.

A few things to consider. 1) with the knife close to his body, elbows in, he is going to have some stability and power behind that stab. The attack not the classical, extended, unrealistic, off balance single thrust that is every martial artists wet dream. 2) you are not only dealing with the knife coming at you, but his mass as well.

I will leave the discussion at that, and let you guys take over. What grappling principles might be used here? What do you consider major do's and don'ts?

Thanks, look forward to any replies.

Steven Brown

Almost forgot about this thread. I sat down a few days ago to view the Red Zone knife tape. There was many segements that reminded me of this thread, but one stuck..lol, no pun intended, in my mind. There was mention of moving around, so as to avoid the attacker. Of course, this was shown and needless to say, there was not too much avoidance going on. Every time the defender moved, parried, etc., the attacker was still right there on him, not letting up. Now, this isn't to say that the movement is bad, but I'd suggest not thinking that its going to buy a ton of time. As for your scenario above, I'd think that moving off line of the attack and gaining control would be first and foremost. If there was an opportunity to get in a hit, such as a jab to the eyes, go for it, but getting control and working knees, stomps on the foot, slamming the person into a nearby wall or working for some sort of takedown to control would be my thoughts.

What about attacking via hitting? I recognize that BJJ's speciality is obviously grappling, but I believe its important to recognize the criticality of taking the fight out of him ASAP. Throwing, clinching, or getting to a submission all take critical time, and you may not have that luxury. Drive your knuckles into his eyebrows, finger(s) into his eye(s), etc., and do so an a selective angle to attack a dimension, i.e. get a specific result such as rocking the head backwards, or turning it to the side to reduce his ability to rotate on the axis of his spine.

I agree. This isn't an unarmed match, so trying to get the best position is something that time will not allow. As I said above, I'm all for taking some shots to hopefully buy us some time.

We should also recognize that we do not need to be necessarily grabbing the offending arm in order to control it. Use of proper bracing angles off the initial deflection or block can be used to press the arm into him. For control, press in above his elbow - blocking below the elbow leaves some unwanted variability.
Grab the arm after the first strike, and if you've got a hold of his arm, whether from the inside or the outside, a break should not be difficult. It does require, however, the ability to deliver breaking power through your stance work.

Good points! There are many drills that we use in the FMA's against knives, that do the very same thing you've mentioned.

There's a particular mantra our group works when dealing with a knife, either as blade against blade or defending empty hand against blade. Its the three D's: Deflect, Dominate, and Destroy. Striking becomes vital in my opinion, as it is the quickest method of attack and cone be done simultaneously with your initial block or deflection. Follow it up immediately with grabs and locks as needed, but I hold the opinion that the attacker must be attacked, and his ability / desire to fight must be taken out of him in the process of gaining control.

More good points! I like the thinking that goes with the 3 "D" theory!:ultracool

Mike

 

[Marvin]

The Machado's did a great training video for this very situation called Brazilian Brawl. I suggest it to everyone, it took my training to the next level.

Indeed!!

 

[MardiGras Bandit]

I didn't mention striking for a few reasons. First off, I doubt my ability to block his initial attack if I'm trying to hit him. I've never trained to do the "block is a strike" thing found in a lot of MA's, and when I've seen it done I was never impressed by the power of the punches. I'd rather concentrate fully on cotroling his weapon hand because like I said, if he stabs me once I assume I'm going to end up dead.

Clinching and throwing do not take much time to set up, a good grappler can execute a takedown in the same amount of time it takes a good striker to throw one or two good punches. The takedown will give far better control of the opponent then striking will, especially is facing a knife. I also think it is very important to control to knife hand above all else, hence the armdrag takedown.

In the event we had to fight on the ground, I thought about mentioning eye gouges and strikes. The reason I didn't was because doing so would require me to sacrifice the control of the weapon hand a submission would provide (assuming I haven't been able to get the weapon). That's not to say I wouldn't do them if i thought it would help, just that they would not be my primary strategy.

 

[bujuts]

Thanks for the response.

I didn't mention striking for a few reasons. First off, I doubt my ability to block his initial attack if I'm trying to hit him. I've never trained to do the "block is a strike" thing found in a lot of MA's, and when I've seen it done I was never impressed by the power of the punches.

Fair enough, but yes, it does require much training. I'd personally never assume on of my blocks to be a disabling, and so the strike itself must be to vital and effective targets while the other arm does the deflection and blocking. I also agree that many assume their strikes to be fight-ending, which I certainly do not.

An important aspect of striking, I believe, is not so much in its capacity to break or KO, but in its ability to manipulate the body. In grappling, we manipulate the body, a portion of the body, or a limb based on physical grabs and joint manipulation. We (our group, I mean) simply refer to this as contact manipulation. Impact manipulation accomplishes the same thing - moving the body or a portion thereof through striking into a position that feeds your next movement. Many see a strike as something that will end a fight, or believe that repeated strikes will eventually produce a KO. I believe this is a mistake to approach it this way, because not everyone's pain threshold will be the same, and not every body will be prone to the same damage. The beauty of striking is just like grappling -it serves to manipulate the person's body. In the exampleI have illustrated, rocking the head at the proper angle will facilitate your grab of the offending arm.

Clinching and throwing do not take much time to set up, a good grappler can execute a takedown in the same amount of time it takes a good striker to throw one or two good punches. The takedown will give far better control of the opponent then striking will, especially is facing a knife. I also think it is very important to control to knife hand above all else, hence the armdrag takedown.

Good points, and I agree with the speed at which good grapplers can move in for an effective take down, no doubt about it. We should at the same time bear in mind the environment and the potential for others. Scan the surroudings while you continue your attack on the first person. This goes back to the original topic of this post - weapons and multiple assailants.

In the event we had to fight on the ground, I thought about mentioning eye gouges and strikes. The reason I didn't was because doing so would require me to sacrifice the control of the weapon hand a submission would provide (assuming I haven't been able to get the weapon). That's not to say I wouldn't do them if i thought it would help, just that they would not be my primary strategy.

Good points. Thanks for the discussion.

Steven Brown