War Atrocities.

[arnisador]

Originally posted by don bohrer
I have read stories like this too Arnisador. I also remember stories of swordsmen practicing on prisioners. Executing with a single clean cut! However the realization that the prisioners were restrained doesn't get much attention.

Here's a book that has some pictures and information on that (and other horrifying incidents) that you might find at your local bookstore:

The Rape of Nanking: The Forgotten Holocaust of World War II by Iris Chang.

Japanese military personnel practicing on Chinese prisoners/civilians during the occupation of Nanking, China. This book is not for the faint of heart.

 

[don bohrer]

I'm not sure I really want to get into a book like this. You know I always like to see the best in people. It's things like this that remind me of the cruelty of a few.


don

 

[MA-Caver]

Originally posted by arnisador
Here's a book that has some pictures and information on that (and other horrifying incidents) that you might find at your local bookstore:

The Rape of Nanking: The Forgotten Holocaust of World War II by Iris Chang.

Japanese military personnel practicing on Chinese prisoners/civilians during the occupation of Nanking, China. This book is not for the faint of heart.

I read this book and it changed my perception of the "noble and civilized" Japanese. But then every country/race has it's actrocities to be ashamed of at one point in history or another. Lookit what we (Americans) done to Native Americans in the 1800's.
This is a good book and I agree not for the faint of heart, but it does give rise to the question as to why these particular war crimes were never sent to the world court... or were they?

 

[KennethKu]

Originally posted by MACaver
I read this book and it changed my perception of the "noble and civilized" Japanese. But then every country/race has it's actrocities to be ashamed of at one point in history or another. Lookit what we (Americans) done to Native Americans in the 1800's.
This is a good book and I agree not for the faint of heart, but it does give rise to the question as to why these particular war crimes were never sent to the world court... or were they?

To be fair, we need to ask the question that why the sins of the fathers be fallen upon the sons and daughters. The descendants of those Japanese war criminals are NOT responsible for the sins and crimes of their forefathers. If we search farther enough, I am sure some of our ancestors were robbers, killers and even rapists. May be they were simply the typical barbarians of their barbaric time. Nonetheless, we should not be burdened by their deed. Wouldn't you think?

 

[MA-Caver]

Originally posted by KennethKu
To be fair, we need to ask the question that why the sins of the fathers be fallen upon the sons and daughters. The descendants of those Japanese war criminals are NOT responsible for the sins and crimes of their forefathers. If we search farther enough, I am sure some of our ancestors were robbers, killers and even rapists. May be they were simply the typical barbarians of their barbaric time. Nonetheless, we should not be burdened by their deed. Wouldn't you think?

This is going OT but it (IMO) merits discussion if, for anything a discussion of morals and ethics and whatevers related to THIS discussion. Thus if the moderator would be so kind as to split this thread and place it where it belongs so it may continue.

(reply to quote): That is indeed true that the sons and daughters should NEVER be held accountable for the sins of the fathers (and mothers). And in the case of Naking I do not hold any present day or post WWII Japanese decendants accountable. As you pointed out our own ancestors are just as guilty for actrocities towards our fellow human beings (as I mentioned about the crimes committed against Native Americans right here in the good ole U.S. of A. ).
My thought stated that I had changed my perception of the "noble and civilized" Japanese people because of these crimes against the civilians in mainland China. Never mind the death march at Baatan because the crimes were against soldiers who were at war with other soldiers and it is indeed war.
Yes war inflicts a terrible and tragic toll against unarmed civilians, the biggest being the Jews in Europe and Hiroshima and Nagasaki for example. But during occupation it is the treatment against the non-combatants that defines the civility of the captors or occupiers (for want of a better term). Imposing martial law (no pun intended) against the civilians is their right (as we're doing in Iraq.
But to wantonly murder, rape, torture people for the pleasure of the soldiers stationed there is barbaric and as uncivilized as anything concieved.
Now take this to present day or future events. Who's to say that those said children of the sinful fathers won't be inclined to do so again? Our soldiers "accidently" killed 8 Iraqi policemen. What other things are going on there that have been censored?
Left to their devices armed men in extreme stress situations/circumstances are capable of doing anything. Control of the reactions to stress shows a level of intelligence and civilization of which we strive so hard to protect and maintain.

 

[arnisador]

I have split this thread off from another thread. Both discussions are interesting but I think they'll do better separately than together.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-

 

[OULobo]

Shooting a couple of Iraqi police by accident is not in the same league as the "Rape of Nanking". There was no organized effort to exterminate or exact revenge on an entire metro area. I know this is just being used as an example, but it isn't correctly applied in my opinion. If you wish to use US actions as an example of how "civilized armies" are still capable of this kind of atrocity, then Mai Lai is a better example.

I personally think there is such a thing as civilized warfare, despite the distaste of killing. The German army, despite the horrible actions of the SS and the Gestapo, were well known to be honorable on the battlefield, by and large obeying the Geneva Convention. In any war there are examples of atrocities, but they are fewer in "civilized" modern warfare. The problem is when soldiers get off because the generals want to keep a unified front and image in place and refuse to convict their own soldiers for crimes reported and proven.

I have to say that, biased as my opinion may sound and on the limited media coverage we have, I think that the current US miltary has done a fantastic job of maintaining the laws of warfare among its own troops despite an army that had no real compunctions breaking those same rules. I saw reports from multiple independant media sources of Iraqi prisoners stating that their incarceration environments were better than their everyday lives and that their only gripes were not being able to worship in private. Even looking past the wrongful imprisonment situation of the Guantanomo Bay group, I think that group is being afforded very humane and decent treatment compared to the possible tortures many of the world's armies of the past and present are/were capable of.

 

[hardheadjarhead]

Warriors of the Rising Sun by Roger Edgerton is an excellent book detailing the development of brutality seen in the Japanese Army of WWII.

He points out that in the Russo-Japanese War, and in China during the Boxer Rebellion, the Japanese were quite compassionate in dealing with their opponents.

Later, with the rise of militarism, the training changed, a corruption of the notion of Bushido took place, and the subsequent atrocities occured.

Good book.

I agree that the "sins of the father" should not be held agains the son. The Japanese of today should not be held responsible for the previous generation. But they must be held accountable. As an American, I don't feel obligated to pay reparations for the enslavement of blacks (not one person in my family had a black slave or even lived in the South), but as an American I MUST aknowledge the injustice openly. The Japanese are not doing this. Their history texts are revisionist, and their children aren't aware of the atrocities their armed forces committed.

I disagree strongly with this statement by MACaver:

"Never mind the death march at Baatan because the crimes were against soldiers who were at war with other soldiers and it is indeed war."

NOTHING justifies what they did to those men. Read the accounts. Forget that the Japanese felt that surrender was dishonorable...they knew how the west viewed it, and played that angle in engineering the surrender of U.S. and British forces in the first part of the war. They bayonetted wounded men in hospitals in Singapore, and slaughtered hospital staff. They doused prisoners in gasoline and set them on fire. They shot, beat, decapitated, starved, and neglected western prisoners. One pilot that was picked up by a Japanese submarine had an artillery shell tied to his legs, his hands were tied, and he was thrown overboard. Did Americans commit atrocities? Certainly. But not of this nature. Not against secured prisoners.

The war is over...forgiveness is in order. But we must remember, aknowledge, and then teach our children NEVER to do this sort of thing. The warrior's honor and simple human decency demands the respectful and humane treatment of prisoners and non-combatants.




Steve Scott