Walk in challenges.

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Talk' started by TallAdam85, Aug 7, 2008.

  1. TallAdam85

    TallAdam85 3rd Black Belt

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    I have said this before and I am sure I will say this again I am new to owning a karate school. So my dojo is located next to a new pizzeria and most of the employees are males ages 17 to 20. I am 23 years old my self so I guess they see me as one of there peers. Anyways getting off topic. So they have made comments before like I want to see how good you are you and I on the mats Adam. I am like “you don’t go in to a doctors office and try to see if you can operate better then him. You don’t walk in to a kitchen and challenge the chief. I am running a martial arts school this is a business just like any other business. But then I always tell them if you really want to give me a shot why not fill out this hold harmless agreement and well go from there by then most of the time they back down. I am very good at using words to defuse the fire but I Was just wondering if stuff like this has happen to anyone on martial talk if so what did you do. I know that It has happened to a few of my friends dojos and they said fine lets go then my friends just made them tap or knocked them out.
     
  2. Hawke

    Hawke Master Black Belt

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    I have heard people doing "walk in challenges" in the BJJ studios.

    I have seen people question the effectiveness of Aikido and get their butt handed to them on the mat.

    I know some guys that took Kenpo (EPAK) because they also got their butts handed to them.

    Guro Dan Inosanto told a story about one of his relative. He could listen to a piano and repeat the notes back. But he can't teach piano because he never had any formal training. When Guro Dan's father would introduce his son to other kali instructors he did not look for the most deadly guy, but the person who could transfer the knowledge.

    You might here this a lot on this forum.....the instructor is more important than the style. If I had to choose between a good teacher or a good fighter I would choose the good teacher (but if you find one that can do both great).

    Maybe it is human nature to see if the person teaching is good by crossing hands instead of looking at the quality of his/her students.
     
  3. mook jong man

    mook jong man Senior Master

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    I used to run a suburban branch that wasn't far from a pub so i always used to get drunks coming in the door .
    Nothing ever happened i persuaded them to leave but always be ready and have your hands up in a inconspicuous way if somebody comes in that you don't know .

    I used to use like a Jack Benny type of guard or have one hand inside the other up near my chin . Remember it doesn't matter how many years you have been training if your hands arent up and the person is too close you can be sucker punched or something similar.

    It looks to them as though your hands are in a passive position as you are talking to them but on a subconscious level they are probably thinking , this guys ready to go , so i better not try anything.

    As for the people in the pizza shop let them do a free trial lesson and put them with one of your hardest students , pretty soon they will realize if i can't deal with one of his students how could i deal with the instructor , it is just ignorance , they don't know what you could do to them.
     
  4. MJS

    MJS Administrator Staff Member

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    These people are stuck in the challenge match mentality. IMO, a challenge really doesn't prove that much because the results could vary from fight to fight. I mean think about it. Chuck Liddel lost a few fights, but does that make him any less of a fighter? So what does the challenge really prove.

    IMO, I think that you handled the situation very good. :) I've never had anyone come into any of the schools that I've been a member at. As far as what would happen....really don't know. I would think that the first thing would be to tell the person to leave, followed by what you did in your case. :)
     
  5. Twin Fist

    Twin Fist Grandmaster

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    according to my instructors, this sort of thing was very common back in the early 70's in Texas.

    Not only civilians coming in but martial artists from other schools.

    Back then, the anwer was simple, get them on the floor and knock them out.

    These days, that can get you sued, so i wouldnt recommend it.

    I sort of had this happen to me, but between the big smile I had on my face, when I said "you want to go to tap out, first blood or knock out?" and the waiver i pulled out of my desk right away, he backed down.
     
  6. tshadowchaser

    tshadowchaser Sr. Grandmaster

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    I had another thread about this a while back I'll try to find it later if no one else dose.

    That being said :
    Yes there are fools out there that think they can walk in and challenge the instructor and or his students. Most of the time these people will not be top notch street fighter but may have some experience . Some are just from the "home study" section of our world. Some are just stupid.
    Each case is different and has to be handled at that time by the person being challenged.
    I will not give advice on this subject because most of my advice on this would end you up in jail
     
  7. FearlessFreep

    FearlessFreep Senior Master

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    What little I know is that these things used to be much more common and much more... well they were actually done, but more among actual practitioners then random people trying to show bravado.

    As to the teacher versus fighter mentality...I once had an instructor say that you don't judge a school based on how good (a fighter, whatever..) the teacher is, you judge based on how good the students are. If the head of the school is a great fighter, that's good for him, but not necessarily for you. However, if the school has skilled students, than that means the instructor is good a transferring that knowledge, which will be good for you if you choose to train there
     
  8. MA-Caver

    MA-Caver Sr. Grandmaster

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    A while ago here on MT we had a guy who said he was 17 and simply a prodigy of all things Martial Arts. Said that he had a plan of traveling across country and finding MA schools where-ever and taking on their highest student and/or instructor.
    I think at the end of it all, we all wished him good luck and basically good riddance.

    I personally would be disappointed with ANY instructor that took on a challenge that just walked off the street. The whole thing is so cliche' that it makes me want to watch a few episodes of Barney just to get the taste out of my mouth. I mean whaddya trying to do? recreate a scene from Chinese Connection/ Fists Of Legend?? gimme a break okay.

    There-is-nothing-to-prove-to-anyone. Except that you're big enough to turn away a worthless challenge. Toss the walk-ins out of your door, lock it and resume teaching your classes. You've a business to run and people are paying you to teach them. Not to watch some loud-mouth get their butt handed to them. If they want that then they can watch cage fights on tv for free.
    If the walk-in however decides to start bullying your students to goad them into action, have someone call 911 and hand their kicked butts over to the police... suggest the emergency room first of course before jail on assault charges.

    Tell the walk ins to walk on back out, you've got better things to do and better students to teach..
     
  9. The Anarchist

    The Anarchist Yellow Belt

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    "Make them tap or knock them out", you can teach a good lesson by showing that pain can be a good teacher. :D

    Edit: That you are a good teacher. I mean, if your students were that successful, they aren't going to leave you if you deny a challenge match.
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2008
  10. stickarts

    stickarts Senior Master

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    I wouldn't pay them any attention when they talk that way. its a waste of time. I just tell people I am peaceful and then I change the subject or leave.:)
     
  11. Grenadier

    Grenadier Administrator Staff Member

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    Actually, it was quite prevalent, especially in the days of John Timothy Keehan (aka "Count Juan Raphael Dante"). It was also this kind of behavior that got his best friend killed, and ended up with Keehan dying from one heck of a stomach ulcer.

    In this day and age, for many of us, there is nothing to be gained by accepting such challenges. If we have a challenger, I'll tell them that if they want to spar, they have to enroll in classes, and work their way up the ranks. If they're actually serious about coming in, training in the beginners class, and working their way up to the intermediate class, where they can then start sparring, I'm guessing that they'll have become decent students, who respect the dojo. Otherwise, they'll drop out.

    If they insist on not enrolling, and are simply looking for a fight, I'll tell them to leave. If they don't leave, I'll call the police.

    There is no reason to play their games, since you could easily have a lot of your students in the dojo at the time, and you don't want to put them in harm's way. Also, with this day and age of litigation, you could get stuck having to go to court, even if you were honestly defending yourself.

    Imagine this: some hot-headed kid comes into your dojo, challenges you, and you accept the challenge, and soundly defeat him with a clean punch, or a nice choke hold.

    After you've thrashed him, he then goes crying to the police, about how he visited a local school, and was just interested in learning, when you beat him up. He then sues you.

    Even though you'd win in court, that's still time and money lost.
     
  12. bowser666

    bowser666 2nd Black Belt

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    I would simply tell them that they are free to try a free class and pair them with one of the more skilled students to give them a taste of what the instructor might know. This will hopefully give them a better understanding. Then again if they are just looknig for a fight I would forcibly eject them if I had to and call the police.
     
  13. Xue Sheng

    Xue Sheng All weight is underside

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    Dr Yang told a story about a guy that walked into his original YMAA school and challenged him.

    If I remember correctly he told the guy he was teaching and could not take any challenged at the moment and asked him to sit down and wait for class to finish and they would discuss this further. I believe he even offered him tea, The guy sat there and watched the class which I believe was a Qinna class and Dr Yang kept on checking to see if the guy was there and after about 5 minutes of watching the class the guy vanished. Dr Yang said he saw this guy on the street a few times after that and all the guy would do is smile and wave, there were no more challenges.
     
  14. JustAVisitor

    JustAVisitor Orange Belt

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    Your reply and the waiver were an excellent way to handle this. Your reaction was very professional and responsible. Congratulations.
    Expect this kind of visits to happen... Be ready for the first hit because you are responsible for the safety of the students (practice over and over again something decisive...). Be ready as it can turn out very bad in a glimpse.
    I just want to add something to your approach: check if the challenger is a MA artist. Ask about the type of MA, the school, etc. And, the person is an MA, tell her/him to come back with the proper credentials from her/his instructor/Master. Establish that you are professional and that you mean business. Build your reputation properly.
     
  15. FearlessFreep

    FearlessFreep Senior Master

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    Buy him a beer


    I've heard that's what Chuck Norris would do when out at a restaurant or something and some would be young punk hot-head challenger came up to try to test him...just be polite, act friendly, buy him a drink and offer him a seat.

    Very disarming
     
  16. Dark Gift Concepts

    Dark Gift Concepts Orange Belt

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    When I use to do Seminars and teach out in say the park setting. I use to get them all of the time. 95% walked away but the 5% that didn't. just like Paul told me. Make and example of them quick n bloody and be done with it.
     
  17. Deaf Smith

    Deaf Smith Master of Arts

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    Had it happen once. But the idiot didn't really understand that to want to spar the owner after class was a challenge. While he was over 6 ft, his sparring was, well sad. I don't know why he came. I suspect he didn't even understand it was bascily a challenge of my school.

    Oh the outcome? He just did some non-contact weird kicks and a few jabs and called it a day.

    Never saw anything like that, before or since.

    Deaf
     
  18. Pacificshore

    Pacificshore Purple Belt

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    Heh, amazed that this still happens.....I say give'em an address to meet at a certain time, and then just let them wait there all night/day long ;) :p
     
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  19. Kreth

    Kreth Grandmaster

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    Walk into the pizzeria when they're busy and challenge them to a pizza-making duel.
     
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  20. FearlessFreep

    FearlessFreep Senior Master

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    You know, I spent my earlier career years in a Pizza restaurant* I think I could match up with that



    *'Dion's', if you're curious Arnisador and anyone else in Albuquerque
     

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