Waivers

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GouRonin

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I have been seeing a lot of people mentioning "waivers" and how they should get people to sign them etc. These waivers don't really do much. They give the owner a chance to fight back MAYBE in court but they do not give them MUCH of a chance. Please don't put so much faith in them.
 
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Icepick

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Depends where you are though. I understand that they are fairly effective in California. NY not so much. I didn't think you could sue people in Canada. Don't you just settle everything over a case of Molson? :p
 

Klondike93

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I did some sparring at a school on saturday and had to sign one, first time I ever had to. How come they use them if they don't work? Peace of mind?
I've always been of the understanding when sparring at other schools, you get hurt too bad you know the risk.

:asian:
 

Bob Hubbard

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I think alot has to do with where you are, and how they are writen.

My guess is, that under normal circumstances, they protect the school from taking too big a hit. On the other hand, if a sparing session gets outta hand and someone tosses ya thru a window, well, I think there may be room for legal action there.

I'm not a lawyer, so can't say.

I sign a waiver when I play paintball. I expect a few bumps and bruises. But...despite that waiver, if some SOB cranks his gun all the way up and pops me point blank, you can bet someones getting sued. Same thing in the school. I expect to take some bumps and feel a little bit of pain from time to time. But I don't expect broken bones, or dislocated joints, or pain at the 'OH @@@@ level'. Thats the point where I call a shark, and point out my 'chum'. :)

Basically, they are a CYA thing. As Icepick said though, effecivness varies with location.

:asian:
 
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GouRonin

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Originally posted by Icepick
I didn't think you could sue people in Canada. Don't you just settle everything over a case of Molson? :p

Damn, the secret is out!
 

arnisador

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One thing they do is show that the person was warned that there was a risk of injury. I would think that that would be a big part of the reason for them from a legal standpoint (though I am not a lawyer).
 

Cthulhu

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Well, the waiver I had to sign for arnisandyz basically said that if he or the other guro killed me, too bad :D

Kidding, kidding.

Gou, are you basing your remarks on how waivers are received in Canadian courts, or U.S.?

Cthulhu
 

Turner

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In my opinion - they might not do much legally, but they inform the student that there IS going to be some contact (after all it is a Combat art, not chess or knitting) and since a lot of people don't really know how legally binding a waiver is, it offers a first line of defense against those that want to sue at the drop of a hat
 
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Shinzu

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i think its more for the fact that the student knows what he/she is getting themselves into.

not that they whine after they get hurt. MA is kind of a practice at your own risk anyway. hell you could hurt yourself by just pulling a muscle!
 
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Kirk

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Originally posted by Shinzu

i think its more for the fact that the student knows what he/she is getting themselves into.

not that they whine after they get hurt. MA is kind of a practice at your own risk anyway. hell you could hurt yourself by just pulling a muscle!

Exactly. But if you go into a dojo, that claims open sparring, and
tell you that it's x type sparring. Say ITF style, following ITF rules.
You know these rules, they claim to know too, and you're assured
that everyone there knows the rules, it's a strict session, yada
yada yada. Now you're sparring one of HIS students, or even
him, and someone slides down like sliding into base, and do a
side kick low onto your abdomen picking your whole body up into
the air. The wind gets knocked out of you, you find out later
that your (pick one: Spleen, bladder, pelvis) is ruptured/broke/
damaged in some way.

Me personally ... I would have felt
conned! As I feel a sharp pain everytime I breathe, I would
just get more and more ticked. What recourse do you have?
You can ignore it, or sue. What else is there? If you do NOT
take any action, then the same thing could happen to a more
fragile person, or someone like you. None of these people
really knew what they were getting into, don't you think?

I'm with the opinion that there's boat loads of frivolous lawsuits
going on, and because of those, we've all lost out on tons of
things. I consider these to be situations like "man helps woman
getting raped, and injuries the rapist. The rapist sues the rescuer
and even worse, wins. Or someone goes into a grocery store,
slips on a strawberry, sues the grocery, and wins millions, when
they're no worse for the wear.

But in cases of pure neglect, or being conned and ending up
being in massive pain ... these people should pay, somehow,
someway. What else can you do but sue?
 

Klondike93

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My thinking is if it's open sparring the rules are just like your going to find at any open tournament. Here in Colorado the groin is a legal target, the body but not the back and head but not the neck.
If you got kicked in the ribs and one breaks, the owner is liable for it? What about blowing your knee out is the owner liable for that to?
I don't think so, it's your fault for not blocking or getting out of the way.
Just like at a tournament you might attend, you take your chances that you might get hurt.
The kenpo school I go to the instructor says "if you get hit it's your fault" and I agree. But, one must also take into account the the rank or degree of knowledge the opponent has or someone will get hurt for sure.


:asian:
 
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GouRonin

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Originally posted by Shinzu
Practice at your own risk. You could hurt yourself by just pulling a muscle!

I have a muscle I am thinking of pulling right now.
:rolleyes:
I have to go call my wife.
:ladysman:
 
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Kirk

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Originally posted by Klondike93

My thinking is if it's open sparring the rules are just like your going to find at any open tournament. Here in Colorado the groin is a legal target, the body but not the back and head but not the neck.
If you got kicked in the ribs and one breaks, the owner is liable for it? What about blowing your knee out is the owner liable for that to?
I don't think so, it's your fault for not blocking or getting out of the way.
Just like at a tournament you might attend, you take your chances that you might get hurt.
The kenpo school I go to the instructor says "if you get hit it's your fault" and I agree. But, one must also take into account the the rank or degree of knowledge the opponent has or someone will get hurt for sure.

I think we MIGHT be in agreement, just saying it differently.
I agree, if I got kicked in the ribs or blow out my knee .. my
fault .. BUT ... if you lost an eye from an intentional eye jab,
is that your fault too? If you get your elbow hyperextended
because a higher ranked person didn't take your level into
account, is that YOUR fault? There's an element of trust here
that goes into this, and evil people can and do study the
arts. What then? What other recourse could you possibly
have while not breaking the law?
 
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fist of fury

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It's just sad that people even go to a martial arts school and don't expect some kind of pain and injury associated with it. Heck the pain is half the fun.
 

Turner

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I'm inclined to agree with you. I enjoy the contact and hate how kid-ified the martial arts have become. Most people go to class and don't expect to get bruised and bloodied and yet they expect to be able to defend themselves on the street? I love being the Uke too much to sue someone for knocking me silly and breaking a few toes in class. That is what the martial arts is about.. contact.
 
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Shinzu

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i think if you are going to do MA, you have to face the fact that sometime throughout your training you are going to get hurt. it's just plain commen sense. the school is just providing you with some soft of info before you sign up.

i think a school could get into even more trouble if they didn't have some sort of waiver.
 
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Kirk

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I'm in complete agreement that bumps bruises and what not
are part of training. I'm in complete agreement that contact has
to be made to make all of that training effective. But lets face
it, assholes are everywhere! If said ******* is close to black,
and you're a beginner, and your personality conflicts with
his/hers then said ******* could be malicious enough to hurt
you. Said ******* could even own the school. Now .. if said
******* had no fear of being sued .. how many injuries could
said ******* dish out? I'm on both sides of this issue. But
I would love a resolve to it all!

I guess I'm posting so much on this thread because I feel kind of
ripped off. My instructor is fearful of sparring, fearful of lawsuits.
I want to be able to gather in fellowship (and beers) with other
martial artists. I want to get on a mat, kick some tail, or get my
tail kicked and learn a thing or two. I want to own a school one
day that can have open sparring! But none of you "seasoned"
practitioners here recommend that. If I only had the forethought
to get involved in MA earlier.
 

Klondike93

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I'm all for open sparring, it's good to be able to sparr different people. You get too comfortable fighting the same people all the time. I am a big supporter of sparring cause I feel you have to get hit to know what it feels like. I feel if you don't when or if you ever do, you'll be shocked by it cause your not used to it. There's also a lot of stress put on you when you sparr, to hit to not get hit etc... But like you said, some bum uses a blatently illegal technique maybe he should be held responsible in some way.
Then after, maybe, moider da bum :D


:asian:
 

tshadowchaser

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The waiver is a strange animal. Some state(US) look upon them with respect some do not. Technicly they are alegal document and the clearer things are written out in the the better. The more times you say there is contact and people can and do get hurt,the better for you. All possible care andcontrol must be used by the instructor(s) to maintain the safty of the student BUT accidents do happen and injuries do occure . These facts must be streesed to the upmost in any waiver.
A multy page waiver , with one for sparring only, is a good idea. make sure all pages are signed and dated.
Just some ideas
Shadow:asian:
 

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