Wado-Ryu vs Shotokan vs TKD

[SPX]

I am looking to get back into martial arts after a multi-year layoff and need a bit of info.

First off, my background is in TKD and Judo (as well as a tiny bit of Wushu). I am, of course, familiar with other martial arts, but only nominally and only as a spectator.

I'm considering getting back into TKD, but I've been having a hard time finding a good school in the area (Salt Lake City, UT). I've also considered Shotokan, but have been having a hard time finding a good Shotokan school as well.

There is, however, a Wado-Ryu school that I have been looking into and will probably go check out within the next week or so. The problem is that I have very little knowledge of Wado-Ryu. I've read a few threads I've found through the search and have done a bit of looking around online, but I figured I would get some tailored opinions from you guys.

Basically, how does both Shotokan AND Wado compare to TKD? And how do Shotokan and Wado compare to each other? What are the benefits of each? And which style, in your opinion, make for a better combative art?

Thanks in advance for the thoughts.

 

[Grenadier]

Having trained in both Shotokan and Wado, I may be able to offer a bit of insight here.

Shotokan Karate and Wado Ryu are related systems, in that Wado Ryu was derived from Shotokan Karate, by Hironori Ohtsuka.

Ohtsuka Shihan already had an extensive background in Shinto Yoshin Ryu Ju Jutsu, and formed the Wado Ryu system from his knowledge of both the Ju Jutsu and the Shotokan Karate.

In a nutshell, Wado Ryu incorporates more "soft" techniques than Shotokan does, and also tends to use more upright stances, as opposed to the deeper stances favored by Shotokan.

Both are excellent combative arts. If you favor hard striking, then Shotokan may be the better choice, while if you favor softer techniques that incorporate more throws / locks, then Wado Ryu may be the better choice.

Of course, this is a very gross generalization. I've seen some Shotokan schools teach a significant amount of the "softer" techniques, and have also seen quite a few Wado schools incorporate a good bit of the "harder" techniques favored by Shotokan. It all depends on who is teaching, and what their backgrounds are.

In the competitive aspect, I've noticed that while the Wado Ryu folks generally don't score too well in Kata competition, they show very well in the Kumite aspect.

 

[SPX]

Hi Grenadier,

Thanks for the response. I appreciate it.

Ohtsuka Shihan already had an extensive background in Shinto Yoshin Ryu Ju Jutsu, and formed the Wado Ryu system from his knowledge of both the Ju Jutsu and the Shotokan Karate.

In a nutshell, Wado Ryu incorporates more "soft" techniques than Shotokan does, and also tends to use more upright stances, as opposed to the deeper stances favored by Shotokan.

Both are excellent combative arts. If you favor hard striking, then Shotokan may be the better choice, while if you favor softer techniques that incorporate more throws / locks, then Wado Ryu may be the better choice.

I've heard more than one person say this, but I'm not sure I totally understand.

First off, I've never studied Jujutsu directly, only it's offshoot Judo. In Wado, do you find judo-style throws, or is it something different? How about any ground work, chokes, armbars, etc?

In regard to the striking, how do the two styles differ? From watching Shotokan kumite vids, the style seems to be very linear and "in your face" . . . effective in close range. I don't know how Wado compares to this.

Also, how do you feel that either style will work in a real self-defense situation? Truthfully, I feel that 90% of TMA practitioners really know nothing about real fighting and would get crushed even by common brawlers. But I've seen some high-level guys who are pretty devastating.

In the competitive aspect, I've noticed that while the Wado Ryu folks generally don't score too well in Kata competition, they show very well in the Kumite aspect.

I've heard that too, regarding kata. Supposedly Shotokan kata are more impressive looking with the deep stances and whatnot.

Glad to hear that Wado guys do well in kumite, though. That's really my primary concern.

Speaking of which, the head instructor of the school I've been checking out is apparently a "7 time Utah Open Karate Championship kumite champion." I hope that means there's lots of sparring.

For the record, here's their website: www.wado-institute.com. Can't tell too much, but at least they have an adults-only class.

 

[Grenadier]

I've heard more than one person say this, but I'm not sure I totally understand.

First off, I've never studied Jujutsu directly, only it's offshoot Judo. In Wado, do you find judo-style throws, or is it something different? How about any ground work, chokes, armbars, etc?

Most of the Ju Jutsu techniques in Wado Ryu are of the stand-up type, where a significant amount of throwing and locking are practiced in the kihon training. Given that Shinto Yoshin Ryu Ju Jutsu uses more of the upsetting of the balance methods, it's not considered one of the "harder" systems of Ju Jutsu. Thus, most of the techniques taken from the Shinto Yoshin Ryu system that were incorporated into the Wado Ryu system, aren't going to be focussed on the ground game.

This is not to say, however, that a Wado Ryu school will not teach ground techniques. It can, and certainly does, vary between one school to the next.

In regard to the striking, how do the two styles differ? From watching Shotokan kumite vids, the style seems to be very linear and "in your face" . . . effective in close range. I don't know how Wado compares to this.

Shotokan Karate is more geared towards straight line, linear fighting, whereas Wado Ryu might favor more of finding a weaker angle and attacking. I've found both ways to be good methods, and wouldn't put one method over the other, in terms of efficacy. Again, though, both systems favor hard linear strikes.

Also, how do you feel that either style will work in a real self-defense situation? Truthfully, I feel that 90% of TMA practitioners really know nothing about real fighting and would get crushed even by common brawlers. But I've seen some high-level guys who are pretty devastating.

Either system will work just fine for a self-defense situation, provided that the trainee has the right mindset. When you claim that 90% of TMA practitioners would get beated in a "real" brawl, maybe it's not so far off, since a lot of people who train in the martial arts aren't in it to blast away the other guy, and that most elderly folks are going to lose to younger, stronger adults in their primes.

However, all things being equal, if you take a well conditioned adult who has been training in traditional Karate, and put him up against a common brawler of similar size, the trained fighter is going to be better off, just as a trained boxer, a trained wrestler, judoka, etc., will as well.

I've heard that too, regarding kata. Supposedly Shotokan kata are more impressive looking with the deep stances and whatnot.

It really doesn't have to do much with stances. It's just that most judges out there are quite familiar with Shotokan and Shito Ryu kata, yet, not many are very familiar with Wado Ryu or Goju Ryu kata. As a result, a lot of narrow minded judges do not have the ability to give a fair evaluation, since they can only go by what they think is right according to their own systems. Hopefully, more of them will continue to attend referee seminars, and understand the fundamentals of each of the four major systems.

Speaking of which, the head instructor of the school I've been checking out is apparently a "7 time Utah Open Karate Championship kumite champion." I hope that means there's lots of sparring.

For the record, here's their website: www.wado-institute.com. Can't tell too much, but at least they have an adults-only class.

Interesting... It appears that the school was founded by Osaka Sensei, who is the real deal, with his being the president of the Wado Ryu Renmei (Federation).

The chief instructor there is Sensei Aurora Taylor-Rojas, and she does have a pretty nice listing of accomplishments, since she was part of the US National Team that competed at the world level. She's a very sharp individual, and I would feel quite comfortable recommending her school.

 

[SPX]

Thanks for the info. That's very helpful.

Regarding my comment on TMA guys not really knowing how to fight, in my experience at least it has largely had to do with the fact that they don't spend much time actually doing contact sparring and they also are not prepared for someone coming at them with a totally different style. For instance, a TKD guy might be able to throw really nice kicks and score points during sparring, but when a Tank Abbot kind of dude comes windmilling at him he gets overwhelmed by aggression and haymakers. As I mentioned, that's not to say that no TMA guys can handle themselves . . . only that, in my opinion, the ones who can train a manner that gives them the tools to deal with scenarios they're likely to encounter beyond the dojo.

I certainly don't want to get into a TMA vs MT discussion here, but I've heard plenty of former TKD or Karate guys who spent several years in the style before switching over to Muay Thai say that they learned more about actual fighting in MT in 3 months than they learned in 3 years in their previous classes. Now I don't fault the styles for this . . . but I do fault the schools. TMAs today largely want to be the martial arts that "anyone can do" and are "fun for the whole family" and that's their focus instead of developing proficient fighters.

Thanks for the info about the school. I would not have known that if you hadn't told me and that gives me more incentive to go check it out.

 

[Cyriacus]

Thanks for the info. That's very helpful.

Regarding my comment on TMA guys not really knowing how to fight, in my experience at least it has largely had to do with the fact that they don't spend much time actually doing contact sparring and they also are not prepared for someone coming at them with a totally different style. For instance, a TKD guy might be able to throw really nice kicks and score points during sparring, but when a Tank Abbot kind of dude comes windmilling at him he gets overwhelmed by aggression and haymakers. As I mentioned, that's not to say that no TMA guys can handle themselves . . . only that, in my opinion, the ones who can train a manner that gives them the tools to deal with scenarios they're likely to encounter beyond the dojo.

I certainly don't want to get into a TMA vs MT discussion here, but I've heard plenty of former TKD or Karate guys who spent several years in the style before switching over to Muay Thai say that they learned more about actual fighting in MT in 3 months than they learned in 3 years in their previous classes. Now I don't fault the styles for this . . . but I do fault the schools. TMAs today largely want to be the martial arts that "anyone can do" and are "fun for the whole family" and that's their focus instead of developing proficient fighters.

Thanks for the info about the school. I would not have known that if you hadn't told me and that gives me more incentive to go check it out.

A TMA System wouldnt be based so heavily on Kicking. Tis a Question of who is Teaching it, and what Theyre Teaching. Because if its Teaching You to score points in Sparring, it isnt a complete TMA. Its an MMA (Modern Martial Art; Just incase I confused anyone).

I think Youre talking about McDojos, buddy

 

[SPX]

I think Youre talking about McDojos, buddy

Hmm, not necessarily. I would argue that a karate or TKD school that trains championship competitors but is entirely sports focused isn't a McDojo, but is just single-minded. When I think "McDojo" I think of martial arts schools that take your money without giving you any legitimate skills in return.

 

[Cyriacus]

Hmm, not necessarily. I would argue that a karate or TKD school that trains championship competitors but is entirely sports focused isn't a McDojo, but is just single-minded. When I think "McDojo" I think of martial arts schools that take your money without giving you any legitimate skills in return.

I was referring to the Underlined Text - "TMAs today largely want to be the martial arts that "anyone can do" and are "fun for the whole family" and that's their focus instead of developing proficient fighters."


Hence why I underlined "I think". And why I Bolded "A TMA", as regard to what I Bolded and Underlined in the Quote.

 

[SPX]

Indeed. I see what you meant now. And yes, I totally agree.

 

[Tez3]

Wado Ryu kata wouldn't do well in a Shotokan competition and vice versa. A lot of emphasis in Wado is placed on Bunkai as well as sparring so it's very good for self defence. I was always told that Shotokan favours the big strong guys while Wado is better for the smaller types, could be quite true. I know a great many karateka who are fearsome strikers and fight full contact. Perhaps we haven't caught up with the States, i expect we shall but we don't have quite as many of the McDojos as they do yet, we still have many hard fighting karate clubs.

 

[SPX]

Wado Ryu kata wouldn't do well in a Shotokan competition and vice versa.

How so? Are the rules different?

I was always told that Shotokan favours the big strong guys while Wado is better for the smaller types, could be quite true.

Well that sounds promising, since I'm only 5'6", 155 lbs. (Not sure what that translates to in UK terms.)

 

[Tez3]

How so? Are the rules different?



Well that sounds promising, since I'm only 5'6", 155 lbs. (Not sure what that translates to in UK terms.)

The rules aren't different but the katas are so it makes judging harder if you don't know what moves, stances etc are supposed to be in there, I wouldn't judge TKD patterns although I would 'understand' the gist of what they were doing I wouldn't know if they were the correct moves or whether they'd missed bits out.

155lbs is 11st and a bit, I'm 5'4" and find the shorter stances and linear movements of Wado suit me, my instructor who's Shotokan is 6' 2" and likes the deeper stances. I also like the practice in Wado of 'not being there' when the strikes are thrown, it's done simply by moving slightly out of the way, very effective and energy efficient to my mind.

Iain Abernethy is Wado Ryu, his Bunkai is amazing as is his fighting skills. Whatever you decide to do I hope you will spend time on Bunkai, it is a very valuable resource, a bit mocked by some but worth doing trust me!
http://iainabernethy.co.uk/article/kata-why-bother

 

[dancingalone]

How so? Are the rules different?

Kata of one karate style can be aesthetically unappealing to adherents of another. Okinawan Goju-ryu for example has a certain pelvic tilt that is very characteristic, yet is not usually found in Shotokan training. Shotokan on the other hand likes to set up a comparatively extreme hip action on almost every technique, something out of place in Goju-ryu kata. There are many other examples of varying standards, even within the same nominal thing, like zenkutsu dachi or front stance. For this reason, I've always looked a little askance at people who say things like a punch is a punch - well yes it is, but how we get there can be quite different based on the system studied.

There is an attempt within competitive karate circuits like the WKF to minimize the differences through 'shitei' or mandatory kata to form an impartial basis for karate-ka of different styles to compete with each other. The WKF shitei kata are standardized ones with 2 each coming out of Shotokan, Goju-ryu, Wado-ryu, and Shito-ryu.

 

[dancingalone]

As I mentioned, that's not to say that no TMA guys can handle themselves . . . only that, in my opinion, the ones who can train a manner that gives them the tools to deal with scenarios they're likely to encounter beyond the dojo.

Agreed. Thankfully the goal to KEEP traditional karate a viable fighting art is alive and well. If you are training in a place that only does static drills along with light contact stand up sparring, you're probably not learning karate as a fighting system.

 

[Tez3]

I've never competed in any comps other than of my style, it's not common here to have all styles comps.
I agree with Dancingalone about not learning karate properly if all you are doing is line drills and light contact sparring. So many denigrate karate as fighting system only knowing what they've learnt/seen in McDojos, it's not the system at fault it's the instructors who have watered down a powerful system for money and easy results.

 

[Cyriacus]

I've never competed in any comps other than of my style, it's not common here to have all styles comps.
I agree with Dancingalone about not learning karate properly if all you are doing is line drills and light contact sparring. So many denigrate karate as fighting system only knowing what they've learnt/seen in McDojos, it's not the system at fault it's the instructors who have watered down a powerful system for money and easy results.

This would depend.
If the Light Contact is being done for Injury Prevention, and not "safety", it isnt too bad. That said, doing a majority of Line Drills is more often than not disfunctional. Let Me emphasise more often than not. Like, REALLY emphasise it.

 

[dancingalone]

This would depend.
If the Light Contact is being done for Injury Prevention, and not "safety", it isnt too bad.

I understand that 99% (my guesstimate) of people taking karate aren't really looking to learn how to fight, even those when you ask them why they want to join your club, self-defense skills is somewhere in the top 3 reasons given usually. And that is fine. But guess what? If we really want to learn how to the fight, we need the occasional experience of taking a hard shot to build toughness, to get used to the physiological shock and pain.

That said, doing a majority of Line Drills is more often than not disfunctional. Let Me emphasise more often than not. Like, REALLY emphasise it.

How do you define line drills? Just practicing techniques in the air? If so, I agree. Line drills are good for developing form, but eventually you have to progress onto striking objects (bags, makiwara, BOBs, wing chun dummies, etc.) and then moving targets (partner held pads & people).

 

[Cyriacus]

I understand that 99% (my guesstimate) of people taking karate aren't really looking to learn how to fight, even those when you ask them why they want to join your club, self-defense skills is somewhere in the top 3 reasons given usually. And that is fine. But guess what? If we really want to learn how to the fight, we need the occasional experience of taking a hard shot to build toughness, to get used to the physiological shock and pain.




How do you define line drills? Just practicing techniques in the air? If so, I agree. Line drills are good for developing form, but eventually you have to progress onto striking objects (bags, makiwara, BOBs, wing chun dummies, etc.) and then moving targets (partner held pads & people).

To the first Paragraph; Yeah, of course hard contact = better. Hell, ive never actually done anything other than Full Contact.

To the second Paragraph; We agree. I also think Air Striking helps to Train You to Strike through, rather than onto, Your Target. Bags and whatnot can, without constant supervision, lead to hitting, then pushing off. That isnt to say hitting and pushing off isnt good. Only that it shouldnt perhaps be your baseline method.

 

[Tez3]

I did say IF ALL you are doing is line drills and light sparring it wasn't the real thing, the TMA students I have do line drills and will spar lightly for safety reasons when the occasion calls for it (as will the MMA fighters) but it's not all we do.

 

[Cyriacus]

I did say IF ALL you are doing is line drills and light sparring it wasn't the real thing, the TMA students I have do line drills and will spar lightly for safety reasons when the occasion calls for it (as will the MMA fighters) but it's not all we do.

I *think* we both know that - I believe We were more discussing an aspect of that point. Or, that was My take on it, anyway.