Using videos to supplement what you learn in class?

[Gerry Seymour]

That isn't what I am proposing. And BTW, if my Master were to make his own videos as a teaching tool, that would be absolutely fine. And that is all I am saying. Learning is a process of give and take, so clearly a person who learns exclusively from a book or video will have some shortcomings because bad habits become engrained. If this kid learned the basic pattern and movements, then had to have an instructor make some minor corrections, he is still ahead of the game, IMO.

My point was just that even if someone came in without any instruction from me, but had learned the basic movements from a video, I could still work with that. I keep the kata work pretty simple and straightforward. Thus, even if someone gets the intent entirely wrong, if they are moving with balance and coordination through an approximation of the moves, they are a step ahead on that work.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I can think of an example. When I was searching, I found a couple of different versions of our TKD forms. One involved fairly wide stances and crisp snappy movements. That is how my school teaches the forms. Another version involved very narrow stances and bobbing up and down throughout the forms. And that style looked nothing like the way we are taught to do forms, so I ignored those.

Your last point is well taken. Green belts are still considered lower belts as you can earn a green belt in less than a year.

Yeah, at less than a year, they probably aren't getting the principles much, yet. That can make learning from a video (if it contains anything that conflicts with the instructor) problematic.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

In TKD I used videos to remind me of certain movements in the poomsae I was currently learning when I forgot them but just as a supplement to class.

In BJJ I use videos to remind me of certain movements I might have forgotten after class but I also sometimes look for a few new things to try and see if I can make them work in rolling. If it's something fairly standard and I can't get it to work I'll ask the instructor to show me the details, if it's something more esoteric that might not be taught in our school, I'll shelve it and chalk it up as a failed experiment....I am a scientist in real life and we have plenty of those........

I find BJJ videos highly useful. The principles are pretty straightforward if you have some related experience, and the technique either works (you did it right) or it doesn't (you missed something). The feedback in groundwork is pretty quick to point out errors.

 

[Flying Crane]

This struck me as a no brainer. Since returning to MA, I have done this to supplement time in class, especially, but not exclusively for forms.

This topic came up last night in class when a guy, who is a new green belt struggled to learn his latest form. Not unusual, but I told this kid what I did. I told him every one of these forms is online, mostly on youtube. In between classes, spend a few minutes a day watching one of these videos, and go over the pattern in your mind a few times. Guaranteed in a few classes, he would have the new movements down.
.

Or he could... actually go over the pattern for real instead of just in his mind...

Guaranteed he will get the pattern down, AND develop some actual skill.

 

[JR 137]

I guess it depends on the student and the intent of using the video.

I was taught a new kata about 3 weeks ago. I’ve seen done quite a few times by my seniors. It seems like an easy enough kata to memorize, but actually doing it is a different story. I’m still in the memorizing it phase; I’ve got it down in my mind, but for some reason I mess up certain things every time as muscle memory kicks in and I start doing something similar from other katas.

Whenever I learn a kata or anything else that’s standardized, I hate not being able to practice it at home. I did this a few times during my previous stint in karate, and I had to unlearn mistakes the hard way. Back then there was no YouTube and we were still hearing “You’ve got mail” when going online. So obviously I didn’t have a useful reference to look at when I got stuck while on my own.

Going back to now, I can watch a video as reference and it helps greatly. I was about 90% memorized before I started looking up my currently new kata, so I could spot differences in another organization that does the kata and a few mistakes made by someone in our organization’s video (not an official video). I’m not looking for subtle details nor to improve how the kata looks; I’m just looking for stuff like “what’s the next step” “is this one all one count or two” “does the step come before or after the punches” was this high or middle punch” etc. Seeing it jogs my memory.

I’m not interested in seeing subtle details like if the stance has the toes pointed one way or another, does the hand open at which point; stuff like that. My teacher will correct that stuff. Im just looking for the overall/gross movement.

 

[Danny T]

Tkd has a philosophy ,? I thought is was just kickin things, you live and learn

Philosophy is the critical study of the basic principles and concepts of a particular branch of knowledge, especially with a view to improving or reconstituting them..
It is also a theory underlying or regarding a sphere of activity or though. For example the philosophy of war.

Philosophy can also be the most basic beliefs, concepts, and attitudes of an individual or group.
So, Yes TKD can have a philosophy.

 

[JR 137]

This struck me as a no brainer. Since returning to MA, I have done this to supplement time in class, especially, but not exclusively for forms.

This topic came up last night in class when a guy, who is a new green belt struggled to learn his latest form. Not unusual, but I told this kid what I did. I told him every one of these forms is online, mostly on youtube. In between classes, spend a few minutes a day watching one of these videos, and go over the pattern in your mind a few times. Guaranteed in a few classes, he would have the new movements down.

An assistant instructor came over and told this kid not to listen to me, that the only instruction he should listen to is from the master, or one of the assistant instructors at the school, and to never try to learn from a video on the internet..

I understand the role of the master and his teachers as gatekeepers, but I am wondering if that time has passed. We all have access to materials on the internet and so long as you don't learn something incorrect, why shouldn't you use what is available to you to facilitate the learning process?

I already laid out my position, but curious what the consensus is here among more advanced practitioners and martial arts teachers.

Perhaps the assistant instructor overheard you and took what you said out of context? He may have thought you were telling the other student to learn the video online rather than use it as reference.

A newer student said something to me about how she’s struggling with a kata because she can’t remember it well enough to practice it at home a year or two ago. I pretty much nodded and gave her a generic answer like “yup, me too.” After we were outside and getting into our cars, I referred her to a specific video on YouTube. I told her the counts and some subtle hand positions are different, but it’s definitely close enough to use as a reference for when you get stuck on a move. I gave that advice because I knew the kata she was learning very well, and I’ve seen the video a number of times.

I told her outside rather than inside because I didn’t want the wrong person or people to overhear it and get the wrong idea. I’m quite certain if I showed my CI the video and told him what I told her before I told her, he’d agree.

IMO the videos are best when you’ve gone through the kata several times with your teacher(s) but you’re still getting stuck at certain places when you do it alone. Same for other standardized stuff.

My current organization used to have DVDs for students to use as reference. There were several problems over the years, so the head of the organization decided to not have them made anymore after they sold out. My former organization did the same thing, had the same issues, and stopped selling them too. I guess those guys changed their mind though, as they currently have a channel on YouTube with their kata on it.

 

[pdg]

Well give an example of three of the philosophy contained in tkd, it's a series of movements towards an end objective it's no more and no less philosophical than sticking up wall paper or mowing a lawn .

If you apply no philosophy to mowing a lawn, you're doing it wrong...

This is what makes ma look silly, pretending it's any more than being able to give someone a good thumping

I thought you said TKD was just kicking stuff - that's different to thumping.

 

[oftheherd1]

@jobo, You make a lot of posts that are hard for me to make any sense of. But I have to admit with this I am astounded. You've never read the book Zen And The Art of Lawn Mowing?

I just don't know what to say.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

If you apply no philosophy to mowing a lawn, you're doing it wrong...

I have neither strategy nor philosophy for mowing my lawn. I have a goal: get it shorter, and relatively orderly (about the same height). Beyond that, I just want it over.

 

[jobo]

@jobo, You make a lot of posts that are hard for me to make any sense of. But I have to admit with this I am astounded. You've never read the book Zen And The Art of Lawn Mowing?

I just don't know what to say.

I have read Zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance, it did indeed contain philosophy, but absolutely no motorcycle maintenance, This disappointed me as that's what I purchased it for. I'm guess Zen and the art of lawn mowing is much the same ?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I have read Zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance, it did indeed contain philosophy, but absolutely no motorcycle maintenance, This disappointed me as that's what I purchased it for. I'm guess Zen and the art of lawn mowing is much the same ?

I keep waiting for Motorcycling and the Art of Zen Maintenance. It seems a straightforward philosophy.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I use video as an important supplemental training tool for my BJJ. I think a high percentage of serious jiujiteiros do the same.

It’s less problematic than it might be for a karateka learning forms. In BJJ the final arbiter for technique is not “does it match what my instructor showed me”, but rather “does it work for me on the mat.”

 

[mrt2]

I use video as an important supplemental training tool for my BJJ. I think a high percentage of serious jiujiteiros do the same.

It’s less problematic than it might be for a karateka learning forms. In BJJ the final arbiter for technique is not “does it match what my instructor showed me”, but rather “does it work for me on the mat.”

Well, this is the gist of the criticism of my post. You pay for instruction which means you do it the head instructor's way.
And as a beginner, that is, I suppose, the way to do it. That said, there are variations within styles or even within schools. I ran into this issue not with the head instructor, but one assistant instructor who keeps pushing me to widen out my back stance. (it feels wrong to me, but I think this is muscle memory from my previous training) So I asked if this is the only way to do a back stance. She said no, that Master. X, a 4th Dan, and second highest ranking instructor at our school prefers a narrower stance, but the correct way to do it is with a wide stance. Anyway, I watch others closely to see if everyone does such a wide back stance and frankly, I see a range. When I get a chance, I will ask the head instructor.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Well, this is the gist of the criticism of my post. You pay for instruction which means you do it the head instructor's way.
And as a beginner, that is, I suppose, the way to do it. That said, there are variations within styles or even within schools. I ran into this issue not with the head instructor, but one assistant instructor who keeps pushing me to widen out my back stance. (it feels wrong to me, but I think this is muscle memory from my previous training) So I asked if this is the only way to do a back stance. She said no, that Master. X, a 4th Dan, and second highest ranking instructor at our school prefers a narrower stance, but the correct way to do it is with a wide stance. Anyway, I watch others closely to see if everyone does such a wide back stance and frankly, I see a range. When I get a chance, I will ask the head instructor.

With things like stances, often there's a good reason for it to be more regimented with beginners and more varied as skill and understanding progress. There are, of course, valid arguments to be made on both sides of that issue. I tend to be strict on stance for a very brief period of time, and only return to strict standards if variances cause a problem for a student (issues with stability, mobility, or affecting some principle of the technique). Because of my knees, I tend to favor fairly tall stances, but I teach lower stances where they are better. My preference is for a specific reason, and I know where the deeper stances have advantages (assuming you don't have knees that quit at a certain angle). This is some of what would be missed by almost any student learning from video. Even a video of me doing the forms won't show them what I expect of them (assuming they don't have knee issues similar to mine).

 

[jobo]

I keep waiting for Motorcycling and the Art of Zen Maintenance. It seems a straightforward philosophy.

If you've not read it, , it's an enjoyable but challenging read,
There three stories woven together, one in his present, touring on a bike with his young son, the second his past and how he got to where he is now in his life and three, the philosophical elements, both in his past leading to his breakdown and now as he ponders the meaning of life whilst riding his bike, your not always sure quite wHats going on at any given moment, as the stories unwind and come all in to one at the end,

It's 35 years since I read it And the first thing I did was read it again to sort out what was what, and I still remember big chunks of it

 

[Dirty Dog]

Well, this is the gist of the criticism of my post. You pay for instruction which means you do it the head instructor's way.
And as a beginner, that is, I suppose, the way to do it. That said, there are variations within styles or even within schools. I ran into this issue not with the head instructor, but one assistant instructor who keeps pushing me to widen out my back stance. (it feels wrong to me, but I think this is muscle memory from my previous training) So I asked if this is the only way to do a back stance. She said no, that Master. X, a 4th Dan, and second highest ranking instructor at our school prefers a narrower stance, but the correct way to do it is with a wide stance. Anyway, I watch others closely to see if everyone does such a wide back stance and frankly, I see a range. When I get a chance, I will ask the head instructor.

For me, I'm about application. While I teach strictly correct stances and such for forms, it's also taught that these are stylized and that in use things will virtually never match what's done in forms.
As an example, I alter the right back stance to compensate for having only one eye; in a form-perfect back stance, I will not be able to see all of my opponent.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

If you've not read it, , it's an enjoyable but challenging read,
There three stories woven together, one in his present, touring on a bike with his young son, the second his past and how he got to where he is now in his life and three, the philosophical elements, both in his past leading to his breakdown and now as he ponders the meaning of life whilst riding his bike, your not always sure quite wHats going on at any given moment, as the stories unwind and come all in to one at the end,

It's 35 years since I read it and I still remember big chunks of it

I read it probably 20 years ago (when a motorcycle was my primary transport). I remember nothing from it, but that's not at all unusual for me.

 

[mrt2]

With things like stances, often there's a good reason for it to be more regimented with beginners and more varied as skill and understanding progress. There are, of course, valid arguments to be made on both sides of that issue. I tend to be strict on stance for a very brief period of time, and only return to strict standards if variances cause a problem for a student (issues with stability, mobility, or affecting some principle of the technique). Because of my knees, I tend to favor fairly tall stances, but I teach lower stances where they are better. My preference is for a specific reason, and I know where the deeper stances have advantages (assuming you don't have knees that quit at a certain angle). This is some of what would be missed by almost any student learning from video. Even a video of me doing the forms won't show them what I expect of them (assuming they don't have knee issues similar to mine).

I think that is where I am at right now. I can do forms from a wide stance if that is what is required, but I have trouble kicking from such a stance. My knees are OK right now, especially given my weight.

I had a talk with another assistant instructor who seemed more flexible on the issue. His view was, for curiculum and testing, do things their way. But when it comes to sparring and tournaments, develop a style that works for you. I asked if the head instructor had a problem with that approach and he said, no, so long as it works.

 

[mrt2]

For me, I'm about application. While I teach strictly correct stances and such for forms, it's also taught that these are stylized and that in use things will virtually never match what's done in forms.
As an example, I alter the right back stance to compensate for having only one eye; in a form-perfect back stance, I will not be able to see all of my opponent.

I am having trouble kicking out of a wide back stance. I understand it is more stable and maybe in time, I will do it this way. The way I learned it in the past in TSD MDK, was, 70% of the weight on the back leg, front leg a little wider than shoulder width with the weight resting on the ball of the foot on the front leg. From what I recall, we used the front leg as a jab. Anyway, I haven't started sparring yet in TKD so I don't know how I will adapt to throwing more kicks off the back leg.