Used up Tooth brush and chewed gum...

[granfire]

Analogies the great state of Texas teaches middle schoolers as sex-ed...you know, 'doing it' before the wedding night.

http://thinkprogress.org/health/2013/11/07/2910611/texas-sex-chewed-gum/

You wonder how well this works for Texas when you read that the state is one with the highest teen pregnancy rates...

“Information like this suggests that anyone who has sex before marriage is undesirable, worthless, and disposable.” Indeed, there can be serious consequences to this type of abstinence-only approach to sexual health instruction. Earlier this year, Elizabeth Smart — a kidnapping and sexual assault victim who now works to prevent predatory crimes — made national headlines when she pointed out emphasizing the importance of purity can make rape victims feel dirty and worthless. Smart described hearing the exact same gum analogy when she was growing up. And after she was repeatedly sexually assaulted, that message had an extremely negative impact on her. “I thought, ‘Oh, my gosh, I’m that chewed up piece of gum, nobody re-chews a piece of gum, you throw it away.’ And that’s how easy it is to feel like you no longer have worth, you no longer have value,” she explained.

 

[arnisador]

First, good for her--what a lot of character and strength she has shown. Second, anyone who looks at any stats on teen sex rates or sex before marriage can see how far out-of-whack this offensive and indeed counterproductive nonsense is.

 

[ballen0351]

Yes what should we ever promote the only 100% effective way not to get an STD or teen pregnancy.

 

[arnisador]

Yes what should we ever promote the only 100% effective way not to get an STD or teen pregnancy.

It isn't 100% effective, because the sexual assault rate is not 0%--that's the point being made in the original post about the young woman who was kidnapped and raped ("the importance of purity can make rape victims feel dirty and worthless"). But even setting that aside, research--sorry, yes, that's an aspect of science, but bear with me--has shown that teaching abstinence is less effective in preventing STDs and teen pregnancy than is teaching birth control. It isn't working.

 

[ballen0351]

So we can't talk about not having sex because of the 1 in a million chance your kidnapped and held as a sex slave

 

[granfire]

So we can't talk about not having sex because of the 1 in a million chance your kidnapped and held as a sex slave

Ah, you got up on the argumentative side of the bed again this morning....

Not doing it is one of the options comprehensive sex-ed gives you.
Without applying values or labels.

How come I know?
Oh heck, maybe because I had this type of sex-ed, knew what the consequences were and made up my own mind not to have sex before age 16...which turned out to be much later, because I was educated and not in a rush to try it because it was oh so forbidden....like drinking. Where I grew up neither has a stigma attached to it, it just does not have that allure.
Do people abuse either? Of course.

The point is, well, not about abstinence, which is a fine thing, because we are not defined by that one thing we do.
That means having sex does not turn us into rubbish, refuse, something not worth of holding dear. THAT is the problem.


Now, giving the 'don't do it' dogma, compared with the teen pregnancy stats...
You don't have to be Sherlock Holmes to see that it's elementary not working. Larry Holmes can tell you that!

On the other hand...
Some people believe that not telling the kids about 'it' will majikally prevent the god given blue print to kick in...
In my house I can hide the computer any place I choose, and the kid finds it without fail, every single time...what do you think the odds are he will not find the parts attached to his body on a permanent basis?!

Sex ed is about giving the kids the information that is available. Do you object to that? The truth? Honesty?

 

[ballen0351]

I've never heard anyone say sex turns you into rubbish However mmultiple sex partners makes you less desirable partner. It is what it is. You can deny it or pretend it ain't true but the old saying is "you don't turn a hoe into a housewife"

 

[arnisador]

Well, that was enlightened.

No one is saying you can't teach abstinence--but you can't teach abstinence only and have a real effect on STD and pregnancy rates.

 

[ballen0351]

Well, that was enlightened.

No one is saying you can't teach abstinence--but you can't teach abstinence only and have a real effect on STD and pregnancy rates.

And you can't teach abstinence and then wink wink nudge nudge here are some condoms just in case. There needs to be a better way then all or nothing. I'm not for totally ignoring all ideas but abstinence. But it seems when dealing with some its not to even be spoken. To be fair its the same for the abstinence only crowd they are both wrong.

 

[oftheherd1]

It isn't 100% effective, because the sexual assault rate is not 0%--that's the point being made in the original post about the young woman who was kidnapped and raped ("the importance of purity can make rape victims feel dirty and worthless"). But even setting that aside, research--sorry, yes, that's an aspect of science, but bear with me--has shown that teaching abstinence is less effective in preventing STDs and teen pregnancy than is teaching birth control. It isn't working.

For that matter, without looking up any studies one way or the other, I have to empirically conclude teaching birth control isn't working either. :lol2:

I do agree that rape is not the fault of a woman, even when it happens because of bad choices on the part of the woman. Therefore a woman should not be considered less worthy, nor have to feel less worthy. I think that concept is a travesty.

I've never heard anyone say sex turns you into rubbish However mmultiple sex partners makes you less desirable partner. It is what it is. You can deny it or pretend it ain't true but the old saying is "you don't turn a hoe into a housewife"

Maybe that is a difference in age or location of growing up. But I can remember when a girl who was raped was considered damaged. And yes, a girl who was known to have sex before marriage, especially a girl who had "slept" around, would have been less desirable for marriage. She wouldn't have been considered a prostitute unless it was known that in fact she was. She just wouldn't have been a first choice for a spouse. Agree with the idea or not, that was the way it was.

 

[granfire]

I've never heard anyone say sex turns you into rubbish However mmultiple sex partners makes you less desirable partner. It is what it is. You can deny it or pretend it ain't true but the old saying is "you don't turn a hoe into a housewife"

oh my...we are not that far removed from the days when it made a guy a stud to have been around....and yes...the ladies were considered...easy.

You did not read the article in any case.
The teaching material likened people - middle school kids - as chewed up gum having had sex prior to marriage. You know, impressionable young minds. Stipud, irrational and damaging.

In your line of thinking a person with a couple of failed relationships isn't worthy of being maried...

My late sister was certainly not one to kick a cute guy out of bed, but I'd be hard pressed to call her a ho. Serial monogamist, maybe...

And last but not leas, we have still not completely overcome the mindset that a rape victim might have possibly liked/wanted/asked for it.

In any case, it's not the basis of a healthy self image, body image or sex life.

Kids should not be having sex. But they should not be treated like mushrooms (you know, kept in the dark and fed manure) but treated as sentinent being, given the information needed to make smart decisions.

As often paraded around: The statistics speak for themselves. In countries with liberal sex-ed the teen pregnancy rates go down.

 

[DennisBreene]

oh my...we are not that far removed from the days when it made a guy a stud to have been around....and yes...the ladies were considered...easy.

You did not read the article in any case.
The teaching material likened people - middle school kids - as chewed up gum having had sex prior to marriage. You know, impressionable young minds. Stipud, irrational and damaging.

In your line of thinking a person with a couple of failed relationships isn't worthy of being maried...

My late sister was certainly not one to kick a cute guy out of bed, but I'd be hard pressed to call her a ho. Serial monogamist, maybe...

And last but not leas, we have still not completely overcome the mindset that a rape victim might have possibly liked/wanted/asked for it.

In any case, it's not the basis of a healthy self image, body image or sex life.

Kids should not be having sex. But they should not be treated like mushrooms (you know, kept in the dark and fed manure) but treated as sentinent being, given the information needed to make smart decisions.

As often paraded around: The statistics speak for themselves. In countries with liberal sex-ed the teen pregnancy rates go down.

Bravo! And you will never find an analysis that demonstrates that any form of sex education is 100% effective in preventing unwanted pregnancy, STD's, rape, or failed marriages (or whatever other metric one decides to employ). The emphasis should be on achieving reasonable success with reasonable methods. I think it starts with acknowledging that children have the capacity to choose and are not programmable. Demonstrating some respect for their capacity for free will and advocating responsible choices based on known consequences may actually be beneficial. I think we forget how much our kids already know (and often misunderstand). Openly addressing these issues on multiple fronts with clear discussions about what we as adults recommend, and why, probably reaches more children than obvious attempts at manipulation. It also means (gulp) discussing sexual issues at home and understanding that the results are not totally open to our control. As to the gum analogy; it's disgusting on the face of it. I don't care who chewed it before, I don't want a part of it. That doesn't translate to a relationship with a sexual partner and the kids are smart enough to see the difference.

 

[WaterGal]

Yes what should we ever promote the only 100% effective way not to get an STD or teen pregnancy.

By telling kids that no one will want to be with them if they have sex before marriage? Over 90% of these teens will have sex before marriage - telling them that they are or will be ruined for doing so seems like a 100% effective way to screw them up.

 

[WaterGal]

I've never heard anyone say sex turns you into rubbish However mmultiple sex partners makes you less desirable partner.

Nope. Who you've had sex with in the past has absolutely nothing to do with one's ability to be a good partner now. But someone who holds the opinion you've stated? They're definitely less desirable as a partner.

"you don't turn a hoe into a housewife"

I've never heard that saying before, thank god. That's a pretty piggish, awful thing to say, and entirely BS besides.

 

[WaterGal]

The emphasis should be on achieving reasonable success with reasonable methods.

Agreed. And it's a fact that comprehensive sex ed is the most effective method at reducing teen pregnancy and STD rates. There's a reason that the teen pregnancy rate in the US has dropped in half in the last 50 years - it's because birth control works. It's certainly a whole lot more effective than saying "don't have sex", or just not talking about it.

Demonstrating some respect for their capacity for free will and advocating responsible choices based on known consequences may actually be beneficial.

Absolutely. Tells teens about the potential consequences of having sex at a young age (and not just by showing them gross slides of STDs like when I was in school). Help teens make responsible, informed choices that are right for them, physically and emotionally. That may mean not having sex yet, or only certain acts, or it may mean having safe sex. But don't make them feel worthless for making certain choices, or tell them that they should never make that choice.

 

[ballen0351]

Nope. Who you've had sex with in the past has absolutely nothing to do with one's ability to be a good partner now. But someone who holds the opinion you've stated? They're definitely less desirable as a partner.



I've never heard that saying before, thank god. That's a pretty piggish, awful thing to say, and entirely BS besides.

Sorry but its just the why most people feel. Just because you pretend its not doesn't make it so.

 

[arnisador]

Sorry but its just the why most people feel.

That's clearly false. The overwhelming majority of people have had sex before marriage. You're mired in the 1950s...or actually a Leave It To Beaver version of it, because the rate of sex outside of marriage was about the same then as now.

 

[ballen0351]

That's clearly false. The overwhelming majority of people have had sex before marriage. You're mired in the 1950s...or actually a Leave It To Beaver version of it, because the rate of sex outside of marriage was about the same then as now.

Ok then believe what you want but thats they way almost every Marine Ive ever known, and well guy in general Ive ever known. That "Ho into a housewife" thing has been around for as long as I can remember. Kinda like the "shes fun for the night but dont take her home to meet your mother" and many other little sayings Ive heard, But you deny it and pretend to be PC im just Honest.

 

[arnisador]

You may well know people who say it, but it's simply impossible for them all to have married virgins when about 95% of the population engages in premarital sex and for both sexes the average number of lifetime sex partners is in the 5-6 range.

 

[ballen0351]

You may well know people who say it, but it's simply impossible for them all to have married virgins when about 95% of the population engag. in premarital sex and for both sexes the average number of lifetime sex partners is in the 5-6 range.

I'm not talking about virgins or people with limited sex partners. The comment was people that sleep around alot (what alot equals is left up to the individule to decide) are seen by others as less desirable. Especially when it comes to woman. How many times have you heard oh if a guy sleeps with a lot of girls he's a stud but if a girl does it she's looked down upon.
Its just the way it is. An "easy" woman is always seen as "easy". Fair or not that's how it is.