Use of Force Law

[marques]

Yeah, some of the responses I have read have reminded me of times at work when someone says "if they step into my unfenced yard I can shoot em" or "since this is a bad neighborhood and the guy arguing with me over a parking space says he will 'kick my ***' from 15 feet away but doesn't approach me I can shoot him right?". Then you have the almost as ridiculous...

Them-"well he started the fight by shoving me why am I arrested?"
Me-"ummm because you broke their jaw by repeatedly punching them face over a shove."

And there is more. If the 'bad guy' is really bad and knows where I live... I need to manage the situation very carefully (to act/do not, how? how much?...). Or I will suffer in the future. If nothing else, fear about the safety of my loved ones... But the warriors just kill them all.

Once I did a 'soft intervention' in the Paris tube. And after that, I changed my routine for a month (longer way, from the usual and already long way...). If I was the 'bad guy' I would be waiting and/or stalking the one who crossed my way until having the opportunity to show him who is the boss.

Against criminal minds, prevention.

A quick google, perhaps unrelated but interesting: Criminal Minds Are Different From Yours, Brain Scans Reveal

 

[PhotonGuy]

So lets say you shoot somebody and they live. Would you be charged with using deadly force? Sure, you might say its only deadly force if the person dies but supposedly in some jurisdictions there are some actions that are universally classified as deadly and shooting is one of them. So even if they live I would think in some cases if not all cases you could be charged with assault with a deadly weapon.

 

[Juany118]

And there is more. If the 'bad guy' is really bad and knows where I live... I need to manage the situation very carefully (to act/do not, how? how much?...). Or I will suffer in the future. If nothing else, fear about the safety of my loved ones... But the warriors just kill them all.

Once I did a 'soft intervention' in the Paris tube. And after that, I changed my routine for a month (longer way, from the usual and already long way...). If I was the 'bad guy' I would be waiting and/or stalking the one who crossed my way until having the opportunity to show him who is the boss.

Against criminal minds, prevention.

A quick google, perhaps unrelated but interesting: Criminal Minds Are Different From Yours, Brain Scans Reveal

Well actually in your own home you have much wider latitude in terms of self defense, at least in the US because the mere fact someone forced entry into you home is a felony. Castle doctrine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia so that circumstance isn't that big an issue imo.

 

[Juany118]

So lets say you shoot somebody and they live. Would you be charged with using deadly force? Sure, you might say its only deadly force if the person dies but supposedly in some jurisdictions there are some actions that are universally classified as deadly and shooting is one of them. So even if they live I would think in some cases if not all cases you could be charged with assault with a deadly weapon.

Yes if it was unjustified that would be Aggravated Assault and likely attempted murder. The use of a firearm is usually seen out of the gate as demonstrating an intent to kill

 

[Juany118]

So lets say you shoot somebody and they live. Would you be charged with using deadly force? Sure, you might say its only deadly force if the person dies but supposedly in some jurisdictions there are some actions that are universally classified as deadly and shooting is one of them. So even if they live I would think in some cases if not all cases you could be charged with assault with a deadly weapon.

Late edit: I may be misreading but it almost seems like you are trying to rationalize excessive force.

 

[PhotonGuy]

So if you shoot at somebody you are using deadly force. It doesn't matter if you miss or if you just injure them, taking a shot is seen as using deadly force by the courts regardless if your shot kills anybody. That's the impression I have.

 

[Juany118]

So if you shoot at somebody you are using deadly force. It doesn't matter if you miss or if you just injure them, taking a shot is seen as using deadly force by the courts regardless if your shot kills anybody. That's the impression I have.

If you miss you MAY dodge attempt murder (but still catch aggravated assault) but if you "just" injure them, yeah. You used a weapon that exists for one reason, to kill another living being. Its one of the reasons, beyond the fact hitting limbs on purpose are hard as hell, that Police are trained to shoot center of mass, and if that fails head shots, and not limbs, because it is DEADLY FORCE and you can only use it if confronted with deadly force.

 

[jks9199]

So lets say you shoot somebody and they live. Would you be charged with using deadly force? Sure, you might say its only deadly force if the person dies but supposedly in some jurisdictions there are some actions that are universally classified as deadly and shooting is one of them. So even if they live I would think in some cases if not all cases you could be charged with assault with a deadly weapon.

Contact a lawyer. Really. Someone oughta get paid for explaining stuff like this to you over and over.

A firearm is pretty much guaranteed to be lethal force. So is a knife. Shoot someone in "self defense" (an affirmative claim where you admit doing something that would ordinarily be illegal, but you had a damn good reason to do it and so should be excused), and you could be charged with anything from murder to unlawful discharge of a firearm within city limits. Shoot and miss, and you can shift to "attempt" instead of actual commission. Get solid training in the laws of self defense if you're going to carry a gun or a knife, put a lawyer on retainer, and know damn well whether what you're doing is right or not.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Contact a lawyer. Really.

I've got access to perhaps one of the best lawyers in the country in terms of firearm laws and I've got his book which is over 500 pages.

Someone oughta get paid for explaining stuff like this to you over and over.

Until now, I don't recall recently inquiring about such stuff.

A firearm is pretty much guaranteed to be lethal force. So is a knife. Shoot someone in "self defense" (an affirmative claim where you admit doing something that would ordinarily be illegal, but you had a damn good reason to do it and so should be excused), and you could be charged with anything from murder to unlawful discharge of a firearm within city limits. Shoot and miss, and you can shift to "attempt" instead of actual commission. Get solid training in the laws of self defense if you're going to carry a gun or a knife, put a lawyer on retainer, and know damn well whether what you're doing is right or not.

According to Juany as posted above, if you shoot and miss you could possibly get it shifted to aggravated assault. As it is though the vast majority of the time I don't carry. Where I spend most of my time its virtually impossible to carry. I am much more likely to be involved in an altercation where I would swing at somebody rather than shoot them although I would hope for neither. I would not want to be in a situation where I would have to use any level of force against a person but if somebody insists on being a troublemaker I will do what is necessary to put them in their place although as I said, I am not that likely to be carrying any weapons should such an unfortunate situation present itself.

 

[PhotonGuy]

So anyway, as I said before sexual offenses and sexual crimes should not be tolerated and a person should not get in trouble for using force to deal with somebody who is committing a sexual offense. While rape is perhaps the most extreme and most severe of all sexual offenses the fact of the matter is that sexual offenses are not limited to just rape. There are other forms of sexual assault not to mention sexual harassment. As such a person should not get in trouble for using physical force in such situations as its self defense. As an example I am posting a video and I would like to point out that I side with the girl in this situation. Here is the video and the action starts at 0:40 for those who don't want to watch the entire video.

 

[Juany118]

And go to jail. Seriously. This is just stupid. Not trying to be a jerk but yeah, just stop, your idea of use of force in self defense will get you, or anyone who listens to you, locked up.

 

[Tez3]

a person should not get in trouble for using force to deal with somebody who is committing a sexual offense

As such a person should not get in trouble for using physical force in such situations as its self defense

Well they don't 'get into trouble', if it's self defence it's fine so why are you labouring the point? If it's clearly self defence they won't be charged or prosecuted.
Why are you using a film, to illustrate something? It's a science fiction film and has nothing to do with real life law, self defence or policing, it's fiction!!!!

 

[PhotonGuy]

And go to jail. Seriously. This is just stupid. Not trying to be a jerk but yeah, just stop, your idea of use of force in self defense will get you, or anyone who listens to you, locked up.

Sexual harassment is a big problem. Are you saying that if somebody is sexually harassing you that you should just let them do it? I don't put up with bullies and that includes people that sexually harass.

 

[Juany118]

Sexual harassment is a big problem. Are you saying that if somebody is sexually harassing you that you should just let them do it? I don't put up with bullies and that includes people that sexually harass.

Verbal harassment as depicted in that video is something you simply can't address with physically force regardless. It doesn't matter what kind of harassment it is. Use of force in self defense needs to have certain "bright line" line legal limits and the minute you start allowing words to justify physical force you are not only creating a subjective standard vs the required objectively reasonable standard, but you essentially invite people to abuse it.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Why are you using a film, to illustrate something? It's a science fiction film and has nothing to do with real life law, self defence or policing, it's fiction!!!!

Ma'am, you're missing the point, sheesh! The video clip I posted might be from a fictional movie but the situation portrayed in the video is not unrealistic and is in fact quite common. Sexual offenses can be a big problem and that includes sexual harassment. The point Im making is its wrong to sexually harass people and that people who do it should be dealt with.

 

[Paul_D]

The point Im making is its wrong to sexually harass people and that people who do it should be dealt with.

The way to find out if someone wants to play strip poker is to ask them. I'm not sure why it is acceptable to physcially assault someone who asks you a quesiton.

Surely a simple "no" would have been acceptable?

Of course, if the "no" is ingnored, then any continued quesitoning on the subject becomes harrasment, but I can't agree that the correct repsonse to a first question is to go round violently assualting people.

 

[Tez3]

Ma'am, you're missing the point, sheesh! The video clip I posted might be from a fictional movie but the situation portrayed in the video is not unrealistic and is in fact quite common. Sexual offenses can be a big problem and that includes sexual harassment. The point Im making is its wrong to sexually harass people and that people who do it should be dealt with.

Aye aye Captain Obvious.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Verbal harassment as depicted in that video is something you simply can't address with physically force regardless. It doesn't matter what kind of harassment it is. Use of force in self defense needs to have certain "bright line" line legal limits and the minute you start allowing words to justify physical force you are not only creating a subjective standard vs the required objectively reasonable standard, but you essentially invite people to abuse it.

Alright you've got a point. Now, how about any sort of sexual harassment that involves unwanted touching? Groping I would think and I would hope would justify the use of physical force. I am not trying to give advice I am trying to learn and I am stating my opinion. Where Im from you're allowed to state your opinion on whether you agree with stuff or not. So with groping, any sort of touching on any part of the body that is covered by the bathing suit without a person's consent, I would think and I would hope that at the very least slugging the groper would not get you in trouble as it would be self defense. And I assume you're quite aware of this but I am going to point it out anyway that although its usually women who are portrayed as being victims of sexual harassment men can be victims too. Men can and are sometimes sexually harassed by other men and this includes groping. So if a man is groped by another man I would hope and I strongly believe he should not get in trouble for slugging the other man. The reason for this post and for my earlier posts is not to give advice but to clarify what is legal in terms of self defense in certain given situations.

 

[PhotonGuy]

The way to find out if someone wants to play strip poker is to ask them. I'm not sure why it is acceptable to physcially assault someone who asks you a quesiton.

Asking somebody to play strip poker is being lewd. And earlier on in that scene the girl made it quite clear that she was not up for such stuff. If some random person on the street asked you if you want to play strip poker how would you react?

 

[Tez3]

Asking somebody to play strip poker is being lewd

Of course it's not. Nothing wrong with strip poker.

If some random person on the street asked you if you want to play strip poker how would you react?

Depends on who is asking, I've played before and it was great fun.