United Martial Artists for Christ

[oftheherd1]

Wow Chris ... Just ... wow.

First, I don't see that every Japanese art is following and totally infused with Shinto, nor that Shinto is in every Japanese art, specifically Karate. And despite how you might wish to modify your stance, or deny it, that is the way it comes across from you.

You paint with a very broad brush. You imply that Shinto is willingly adhered to by all Japanese in all aspects of their daily life, and so in Japanese martial arts. You do not account for what my have become a part of the culture that no longer has any religious meaning to many if not most people. Does every Buddhist begin and end his worship with Shinto rituals? Do Christians happily include Shinto in their worship? I think not.

Second, to cover only what you said in reference to me:

oftheherd1 said: ↑


What was the bow called before the Japanese established Shintoism as their animistic 'national' religion?


I think you're getting it all backwards, there... a bow is used within Shinto, a bow is not Shinto... as far as names, different bows have different names, but really, that's fairly different...

You still haven't answered my question. That is OK, since we both know what I was setting you up for was that Shinto didn't invent the bow. You now say the bow isn't Shinto, but is used within Shinto. That isn't how you said it before.

OK, we can take that out. When you bow on entering a dojo, you are not practicing Shinto

EDIT: When I tried to post here, for some reason it left out part of what I wanted to say. I'll try tp reconstruct it now:

oftheherd1 said:


Yes, there is much to think on, and many paths no doubt. But as to your first paragraph, we don't know how big the "Golden Calf" was, but read Exodus chapter 32.

As to the second paragraph, I don't know if going to church is always a religious act. I think I can agree that for some it is intended to appear to be a religious act. I do think you can learn a martial art and not make bowing a religious act. I also think that the bowing in some martial arts is not a religious act. But being a Christian and going to church, or seeking to evaluate Christianity, is not like the bowing Chris Parker describes.

Click to expand...
Going to the dojo is like going to Church... quite literally. It's a Buddhist word, after all... a Buddhist concept... a Buddhist location...

As to much of this, you're conflating your own beliefs and desires with what actually is. That's fine... it's common, really... but it doesn't change the reality of it all.

The above makes no sense. At least in my experience, going to a martial arts school is nothing like going to church. Even if you are saying "dojo" is a Buddhist word, a dojo and a church are not the same. I don't go to a martial arts school to be in church, and I don't go to church to study my martial art. But how did Buddhism get into this? I thought is was all supposed to be about Shintoism.

oftheherd1 said:


I would guess if you do it as Chris Parker apparently does, it might be. I doubt it would be a requirement other than Aikido. But don't take my word for it. I only know what I have seen in programs about Aikido, and I haven't seen that in Karate or Jujutsu, but I guess it could be there as well.


It has nothing to do with the way I "apparently (do it)", it has to do with what it actually is...

I'm sorry, I don't understand. What is it that "...it actually is..."?

oftheherd1 said:


Certainly there has been some drift, most recently due to comments by and in response to, Mr. Chris Parker. He has made his usual well segmented replies generally picking apart other's posts. I sometimes find them informative, sometimes humorous, sometimes I wonder what it was all about.


Hmm... I'm not sure if I'm flattered or insulted by that... ha!

Well, you do tend to segment every post. I do it sometimes myself as sometimes it seems to add clarity, or just ease of answering. But as I pointed out in my answers, I don't always find what you say to make sense to me.

 

[Juany118]

Wow Chris ... Just ... wow.

First, I don't see that every Japanese art is following and totally infused with Shinto, nor that Shinto is in every Japanese art, specifically Karate. And despite how you might wish to modify your stance, or deny it, that is the way it comes across from you.

You paint with a very broad brush. You imply that Shinto is willingly adhered to by all Japanese in all aspects of their daily life, and so in Japanese martial arts. You do not account for what my have become a part of the culture that no longer has any religious meaning to many if not most people. Does every Buddhist begin and end his worship with Shinto rituals? Do Christians happily include Shinto in their worship? I think not.

Second, to cover only what you said in reference to me:

oftheherd1 said: ↑


What was the bow called before the Japanese established Shintoism as their animistic 'national' religion?


I think you're getting it all backwards, there... a bow is used within Shinto, a bow is not Shinto... as far as names, different bows have different names, but really, that's fairly different...

You still haven't answered my question. That is OK, since we both know what I was setting you up for was that Shinto didn't invent the bow. You now say the bow isn't Shinto, but is used within Shinto. That isn't how you said it before. OK, we can take that out. When you bow on entering a dojo, you are not practicing Shinto

I think you point out something important. Yes the bow is important but when you enter a place where bowing is cultural AND religious, and not simply one religion where does the line get drawn. As an example, interesting "religious evolution" case study is Shinto. Shinto started, essentially, not as a single religion but a series of Animistic cults spread throughout the islands, what rituals they have are vague and the main source is the Kojiki, which was largely a work of propaganda designed to support the Divine Right of the Emperor. Then when Buddhism came to Japan in the 6 century AD, followed by Confucianism.

Now Confuscian thought is a philosophy and not a religion, more on this later, but many elements of both got added to Shinto, especially as Buddhism spread. Now the idea of bowing in Buddhism, as simply a sign of showing modesty, goes back almost 1000 before this time. Also many Martial Arts from Japan have a Buddhist religious foundation and not a Shinto one. Add onto the fact that bowing was and is used in Japanese society as a cultural way of, again, showing respect.

So is the bowing a religious or cultural thing. If religious which religion? Then add in the fact that Confucian-inspired Japanese rules of demeanour, that started with the Samurai and then spread to society at large can be seen as the heart of the Ritual in the Dojo as well. When you have so much melding of different cultures, philosophy and faiths you end up having no real answer. Yes Martial Arts X may bow one way because the family that founded it are/were devoted to a specific religion, Shinto over there, Buddhism over here. Another may do it because of the fact that dating back over 800 years the bowing was part of the codified etiquette of the warrior class, which was largely Confucian in origin.

Like most things when it comes to such a diverse topic, there is no single answer.

 

[drop bear]

If Christmas can be a Christian,not Christian fuzzy mash of concepts all at the same time.

Then bowing in a dojo can be Shinto,non Shinto or even Christian as well.

Religious riturals are not as set in stone as people would like us to believe. Regardless as to their origin.

Oh look Shinto is a fuzzy mash of stuff as well. What a suprise.
BBC - Religions - Shinto: Shinto history

 

[JR 137]

Oh boy...

Look, there's a lot to clarify and cover, so this'll take a fair bit... but I'll try to keep each response short... well, as short as I can, anyway. Anyone who sees their name might want to just skip through to those areas... as there'll be a lot of doubling up here.

Just as a basic preface, though... you're all thinking in terms of Western religion (well, maybe not Xue...), which means that you're looking at things with a rather inaccurate and incomplete grasp of the concepts... so I heartily recommend to keep that in mind.



Look, you can disagree all you want... but I haven't been discussing preferences, opinions, theories, or anything else... I've simply reported facts. Disagree if you want, but the reality is that I've simply told you what the reality is. What you do with that information is up to you. I'm not ignoring your points, your points are ignoring the reality.



Which is, pretty much, exactly what I'm saying.



And here is where the viewing through a Western religious lens comes into it... I have never, at any point, said anything about "worship". I have also never suggested that, by engaging in the ritual, or by attending a class, you are now a fully indoctrinated Shinto-ist... what I have said is that rituals themselves are a Shinto ritual (as well as quite a lot of other aspects being taken from Japanese religious concepts), and that, if your religion forbids you from participating in the rituals of other religions, you have to come to some understanding of that. You can ignore the religious aspects, and make peace with it that way... you can make it mean something else in your mind... you can refuse to participate (which can mean you are not part of that school/art)... or whatever. But that's up to the individual.

With the comment on the religious influences, honestly, it's so ingrained in (particularly Japanese classical arts) so many aspects of the art that, yes, if you were to remove all religious aspects from a Japanese martial art, you'd have very little left... you wouldn't have your dojo to train in, for one thing... you wouldn't have the architecture of it either... you wouldn't have a number of aspects of the clothing... you'd be missing a lot of the terminology... and many of the techniques would be removed as well.

Yep, you'd be missing the actual martial art techniques in many cases. No, I'm not kidding. Welcome to Japanese martial arts.

I'll give an example... I was teaching a Hanbo (three foot staff) technique last night... it's a fairly simple technique against a low strike to the body (which could also be a knife thrust, by the way), and the response is to strike down on top of the hand/wrist, then pull the staff back horizontally, in order to strike horizontally around to the side/back of the opponent. Okay, fairly simple... but, if it's a punch, is the arm still there for your strike down? And why a horizontal strike, when a thrust is right there, and easier to do? Well, it comes down to esoteric Shinto-ism.

The technique is from a branch of the Kukishin Ryu... who are famous for having, not just martial arts, but a family transmitted form of Shinto, called Nakatomi Shinto (not uncommon in Japanese arts). Within Shinto, there are concepts of protective spells and so forth, the best known being Kuji Kiri (nine syllable cutting), with the next level being Juji Kiri (ten syllable cutting)... with the "tenth syllable/character" being the spell being locked in in the first place. As a result, the striking method of the weapon is a vertical strike down, followed by a horizontal strike across... in Japanese, the character for "ten" (Ju - 十) is a cross... a vertical and horizontal line intersecting... which means that the technique is, not only a powerful way to strike, but a way of invoking a protective spell for your own well being when engaging in combat.

And, just in case you think this is an isolated case, the first kata in many sword systems, particularly Iai methods, follow the same idea... a horizontal cut, then a vertical one (sometimes multiples) with the same concept... the Iai methods of a number of arts (such as Katori Shinto Ryu) can also be used as a ritual for things like exorcism (Japanese, not Western), and so on. The footwork patterns of the kata of karate, TKD, and Chinese forms (such as Ba-gua) are also based in the same ideas... such as the trigrams used in both Korean and Chinese systems, linked with the I-ching (itself highly religious in it's base)... the use of particular fists has a similar idea behind it...

So, you understand, when I say that much of the art is removed once you remove all religious influence and aspects from these systems, and you're losing most of the art... leaving you with a shell...



In most cases, they aren't aware of what they would need to remove... they've taken out some of the overt symbolic aspects, but actually kept the parts that make it a Shinto influence/ritual... and simply deny what it is (either through lack of knowledge, or through arrogance that they even know what it is in the first place...). And I'm not making any kind of case for anything being "traditional"... I'm talking about the actual practice today. Now. Whether it's recognised or not.



That is a decision the individual needs to make... but nothing changes the fact that the ritual is a religious act and action. And again, if your religion forbids partaking in the practice of other religious rituals/behaviours, it's useful to be aware of it when you walk in.



I think you're getting it all backwards, there... a bow is used within Shinto, a bow is not Shinto... as far as names, different bows have different names, but really, that's fairly different...



Yep, agreed.



Regardless of anyone's personal religious beliefs, are you going to suggest that a Church is not a religious building except for Christians? A religious building is a religious building... maybe not your personal one, but it still is. You'd be hard pressed to not describe a synagogue, a mosque, a Buddhist Temple, a Shinto shrine, a Catholic Church, an abbey, a cathedral, a chapel as not being religious buildings, no matter what religion you particularly subscribe to (or not).

From there, it becomes a question of what the act of going to that religious building is for the individual... and that comes down to the internal belief system of the individual... but, nothing that the individual believes, thinks, feels, or understands changes the fact that the building is a religious structure, the activities that take place in that building are religious, and so on. In other words, you don't go to Church for a service, and expect it to be completely secular.



If you're not praying, you're not praying... so... okay... on the other hand, if you are taking part in communion, regardless of your thoughts, you are taking part in communion... a religious act is a religious act. Not praying is not partaking in it... not making it non-religious for you.



Again, I've never said anything about worship... you're thinking too "Western"... but yeah, many aspects of these arts are manifestations of Shinto (and Buddhist) concepts, ideas, teachings, and so on.



Going to the dojo is like going to Church... quite literally. It's a Buddhist word, after all... a Buddhist concept... a Buddhist location...

As to much of this, you're conflating your own beliefs and desires with what actually is. That's fine... it's common, really... but it doesn't change the reality of it all.



It has nothing to do with the way I "apparently (do it)", it has to do with what it actually is...



To deal with the PDF excerpt first... honestly, I don't agree with it. It's largely an apologetic piece working to deny the reality of the situation in order to make engaging in the actions more palatable for Westerners who were concerned about such issues.

That said, yeah, much of the religious aspects were not made clear at the least to Westerners training in the early days... whether that's it being "swept under the rug", or just not felt like it was required to be explained, as the influence was pretty obvious to all who grew up in the culture, is another question.



Yep, precisely. Although, I will say that I have been focusing on that for two reasons... one, it was the example given early in the thread of an example of potential religious action within the class, and two, it's a rather overt example, whereas much of the remainder is highly embedded, to the point that it's not noticed by large numbers of practitioners (such as my techniques examples earlier).



The rituals structure and symbolism, as well as various esoteria associated, are what makes them religious. Not the follower themselves. It's an important distinction to keep in mind.



Again, no. The religious ritual is a religious ritual regardless of who is performing it, and why.



I'm not sure what you're saying there... I feel some of those words should be "if", or "is".... but I'm not confident on your meaning. Can you clarify?



Well, yeah... that's what I was meaning when I kept saying that, no, I wasn't really talking about karate... that said, there is an amount of Shinto involved... as well as Taoism, Confucianism, and more...



While not taking much issue with many of that, I would ask if that is a rather long copy-paste from another (uncredited) source... if so, you may want to check the "fair use" clause on the TOS... this might not pass muster.



So here's the question, Steve (and Gerry... and, well, most here)... how are you agreeing that the religious act of engaging in taking communion, which can be stripped down to having a drink and a bite to eat, is something that is definitely a religious act, yet a specifically Shinto ritual, taking place in a building whose purpose is for the study of religious ways and methods, is not necessarily one just because you don't automatically conflate it with a religious ritual or location you're familiar with?



Yep, well... it's adapted, but it's certainly showing all the hallmarks of Shinto, so... yeah. It is. I might point out that a kamidana itself is not necessary for it to be Shinto, although it does make a central focal point, as well as basically screaming it out... by bowing to the front of the dojo (the kamiza... where the spirits [kami] sit), whether or not a shinzen or kamidana is present, it's still the same concept and idea.

I'd also point out that the very name of your system seems rather steeped in Buddhist thought... Seido - which refers to the "way of sincerity", or "the way of the true heart" is very much Buddhist in both the characters chosen and the intent behind each... which also matches the stated mission intent of the system, so you know...



Okay... but the point is that this is not the same thing at all... you're equating an action of Western respect for symbolic representations (the flag or president representing the country) with a Japanese action of religious reverence, and religious observance... they're not the same thing, despite some basic similarities.



Okay, not a problem with that either. Again, meditation, other than zazen with Zen Buddhism, can be religious or secular... so it's up to you what way you want to approach it. And that's been the whole point... even when the acts and rituals are religious, it doesn't mean you have to subscribe to the belief systems, just be aware of them when engaging in them... then choose how you want to partake.

Oh, but it's "mokuso" for mediation, for the record... meaning, quite literally, to "silence your thoughts"... so you're actually staying in exact lock-step with the intention there.



There's a difference here between something being interpreted as religious (in personal expression and involvement), and it being a specifically religious act.



You're only seeing one (overt) representation of the influence of Shinto, though... honestly, there's going to be a lot more than you think... as well as a fair bit from Buddhism as well (even more in Ueshiba's Aikido, obviously).



You're using a Western interpretation of religion there... not what is meant in a Japanese sense...



This is the point, though... the religious ceremony (Shinto) at the beginning of a class (and end), as well as the religious aspect of the building, the location, the original meanings, the terminology, and more, are there, whether you acknowledge them, partake in them, follow the beliefs, or not. You can partake in the ritual, and not have your heart in it... or you can have your heart in it... but that doesn't change what you're taking part in.

Similarly, wearing a yarmulke, whether you observe the religious significance or not, maintains it's religious significance... if it didn't, you wouldn't have put it on.



Bowing itself is very Japanese (and most of Asia, really)... not specifically Shinto... but Shinto bowing rituals are very much Shinto... obviously. As far as the aspects being used outside of their religious context, well, that's not really how it would be seen...

Shinto is in everything, in a Japanese sense... it's the oldest native religion in Japan, and was always very personalised (typically to a family, or group, hence the Kuki family having their own family line of Nakatomi Ryu Shinto mentioned above). It was only when Buddhism began to be introduced, and picked up momentum, that Shinto started to be somewhat formalised, with specific shrines being erected, and the addition of small shrines in peoples homes were added (as a reminder of Shinto in the face of the new imported religion). What that meant was that both Shinto and Buddhism were suddenly sitting side-by-side in people's homes and in the community, so the idea of observing both at the same time was just accepted without any problems...

At the end of the day, from a Japanese Shinto practice point of view, everything is Shinto... there is no "outside of the religious context", as the religious context is the entire world, and everyone (and everything) in it.



Yep, that's valid... but being aware of what is actually religious or not is important if such things are important to you, and your religious beliefs.



It's actually the other way around... the Japanese religious ideologies pervade the training... in more ways than people recognise...



Yes, again, that's one way to look at it... for Ueshiba, I feel that was more about being inclusive and spreading his art... but, at his heart, there was a lot of religious aspects throughout everything he did.



It's in line with many religious doctrines and teachings, frankly. And the idea that it's a purely Christian one is potentially a rather arrogant one, to my mind... after all, Ueshiba himself modelled much of his approach on his contact and immersion in the Omoto-kyo sect of Buddhism... and, when meeting the members of the Kukishin Ryu, with their practice firmly embedded in their Nakatomi Ryu Shinto, announced to the head of the system that his martial arts (spiritually) was that of the Kuki family (Shinto)...



Hmm... I'm not sure if I'm flattered or insulted by that... ha!



Yeah... no, they're not. You could argue that the basis of the physical techniques is primarily in body mechanics, as well as some aspects of physics, but that's it... and that's not what martial arts are about. Honestly, to me, reducing martial arts to a series of physical actions is to reduce a great meal to a few of it's ingredients...

At their heart, martial arts (talking specifically of Japanese here, as that's been the core of the comments I've been making... and is what is informing the religious aspects being discussed) are both political entities and religious observances. Many, if not the vast majority, of classical systems were set up around religious shrines and temples... they were as much religious offerings to the shrines as anything else (even to today... martial demonstrations in Japan are set up around being religious offerings presented to shrines and temples)... many arts techniques are based in religious ideas and concepts... so, in a very real way, many (most... almost all) martial arts are, ultimately, about religion. So you know.



That depends on the bow... but more importantly, that has been a big part of the point. It doesn't matter if they don't know the Shinto origin/meaning of the action, it is still Shinto... just unobserved as such.



We're not talking about history, though... we're talking about current martial arts, in current dojo, in the modern world... it's just that people don't understand much of what they're doing. By a similar token, performing a karate kata with no sense of the applications (bunkai, or any other term used) doesn't change the fact that the kata is still from whichever form of karate... but the person who is aware of it's applications (meanings, intent, history, breakdown etc) will get so much more out of it than someone who simply moves around in the same sequence.



Speaking hypothetically, based on the information given, probably not... to be honest, there seems to be little Christian added in... more the perceived aspects of Japanese religion, whether understood, recognised, or anything else, have been minimalised or removed. At most, there may be some prayer involved... which would be a yes on that count (obviously I haven't been to the class, so that is speculation).



It would mean that you were participating in Christian rituals... but that's about it. Actually being a Christian, if it's to mean anything, must mean that you are one even outside of the dojo, and when not training/engaging in the rituals. Same with the Shinto aspect... you would be participating in a Shinto ritual... to actually be an observer of Shinto is something much further down the trail.



If you're training in a specifically Christian school, where the tenets and beliefs of the school are based around the doctrine and beliefs held within that branch or sect of Christianity, and large parts of the syllabus/structure/organisation are geared up to be formally Christian... yet you leave off all the Christian aspects, the ritual, the influenced aspects of the training, then yeah, you'd probably only join in a small part of the actual school... which would be training in a shell of the art.



Ah, now this is interesting... must there be? Honestly, to my mind, yes, there must. Otherwise it's just violence. All warriorship cultures have had spirituality go hand in hand with the training of their warriors, whether it be the Massai of Africa with their manhood ritual and more, or the ancient Knights of Europe, most exemplified by the Brotherhood of the Poor Knights of the Temple of Solomon... or, to give the more common name, the Knights Templar... and so on and so forth. And the reason is pretty simple... the business of a warrior is to face their own potential death every day... as well as facing the idea of taking the life of another. That type of training and lifestyle must, if there's any sense of morality and human cost, spark a question of what happens at the onset of death... leading to a necessary spiritual introspection and questioning.

So, must it be Shinto if it came from Japan? Well, no... but then again, with the way Shinto is a part of much of everyday life, and is ever present, even at home, it's hard to avoid... is it the biggest influence on a particular system? Maybe, maybe not... Shorinji Kempo has it's spiritual core based in Buddhism (an interpretation of Shaolin teachings), from Doshin So (for the record, Shorinji Kempo is another modern art that is entirely based around religious teachings and spirituality).

Can it be replaced with, say, Christianity? Well, maybe... but you'll lose the whole idea of it being a Japanese art at that point... and it would require actually being able to identify the Shinto aspects in the first place... and, frankly, that's where it would fall down, I feel.

You must get really tired from the burden of always having to correct everything little thing everyone says. No idea where you find the energy.

"For the record," sorry I misspelled mokuso. Being an imperfect typist, I make mistakes in spelling every now and again, yeah? (As you like to say)

As for the name Seido, I'm quite clear where the name comes from. I do study the style, have read all books from the founder, trained in his class a few times, and have met and conversed with him several times, yeah? Quite sure I know the history behind it, "so you know..."

Call it whatever you want, but I look at the opening and closing of class as a sign of respect - respect for the organization as a whole, respect for the founder, respect for my teacher, and respect for everyone in attendance that I'm training alongside. The word Rei literally means, respect, yeah? Doesn't literally mean bow, yeah? Doesn't mean worship, yeah? But you know this. But again, call it what you will, it's all about intent. I have my intent, you have yours, and everyone has there's.

There's a way to communicate without being a know-it-all, arrogant SOB. I'm sure I haven't said it yet, and it's overdue... Thank you for your crusade of correcting all that is wrong in this world. You take so much time out of your busy day to correct all us ill informed underlings. There's a special place waiting for you in heaven when your time comes.*

*If you believe in that sort of thing. Nothing wrong with it you do or don't.

 

[Juany118]

There's a way to communicate without being a know-it-all, arrogant SOB. I'm sure I haven't said it yet, and it's overdue... Thank you for your crusade of correcting all that is wrong in this world. You take so much time out of your busy day to correct all us ill informed underlings. There's a special place waiting for you in heaven when your time comes.*

*If you believe in that sort of thing. Nothing wrong with it you do or don't.

I hate to say this but especially since some forms of Japanese MA's bow with an origin in the Confucian (read philosophical, not religious) influence that started with the Warrior Class/Samurai almost 1000 years ago. Still others bow with an origin in Zen Buddhism. It is a documented fact that there is no single reason for bowing in Japanese Martial Arts. I was just trying to dodge being this blunt.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Yet again another post that is spot on by Chris that breaks down and explains exactly what everyone needs to hear but probably doesn't want to acknowledge. I see people trying to work around and that is okay. However, justify it as you want but it still is exactly what it is!

 

[Juany118]

Yet again another post that is spot on by Chris that breaks down and explains exactly what everyone needs to hear but probably doesn't want to acknowledge. I see people trying to work around and that is okay. However, justify it as you want but it still is exactly what it is!

How so...He says specifically "Shinto" in origin when there are arts in Japan that draw their roots not from Shinto but explicitly from Buddhist or from the Samurai code of Conduct that has A LOT of Confucian thought. I totally get that Chris knows a lot, but one can't ignore the arts whose origins are in Buddhist teachings of the melange, founded in Confucian thought, that was the codified code of conduct of the warrior class and then spread to society at large roughly 800 years ago. I was, tbh, shocked at the fact he ignored these other factors but tried to be "round about" for the sake of being polite in my critique.

Heck it gets even murkier because the Shinto faith in its evolution absorbed things from both Buddhism and Confucianism as they spread throughout Japan so it gets even murkier.

These are actual historical facts anyone can research if they bother to do so. One of the things I actually love about Japanese History is that it is so unlike the West. Imagine Christian Europe, 1000 years ago. What would have happened if suddenly a Religion came from elsewhere to contest Christianity? In Japan however they let Buddhism do its thing. Shinto also did it's thing but also took some stuff from Buddhism. Same with the Confucian Philosophy when it came along. Rather than fight the knew the powers that be figured out ways to make the new suit their purposes.

If he hadn't specifically named a single influence I wouldnt have an issue, but he ignored the fact that Japan, and it's Martial Arts, have multiple religious/philosophical influences and as such there is no one size fits all answer.

 

[JR 137]

It is a documented fact that there is no single reason for bowing in Japanese Martial Arts.

A reason for bowing in Japanese martial arts is it is part of Japanese culture. If you're studying a "traditional" Japanese martial art, part of that tradition may include practicing parts of the culture. This may also include Japanese terminology, removing shoes, etc.

I like the bowing. It makes it more formal for me. If I were to eliminate anything cultural from the art, it would be removing the shoes. Far more benefits to wearing them than not - being barefoot during self defense isn't nearly as common as when wearing shoes, reducing foot disease transmission, reducing stress on the feet, and so on.

 

[JR 137]

Yet again another post that is spot on by Chris that breaks down and explains exactly what everyone needs to hear but probably doesn't want to acknowledge. I see people trying to work around and that is okay. However, justify it as you want but it still is exactly what it is!

Quite often it's not the message, but the delivery. No one needs to be talked down to.

 

[Juany118]

A reason for bowing in Japanese martial arts is it is part of Japanese culture. If you're studying a "traditional" Japanese martial art, part of that tradition may practicing parts of the culture. This may also include Japanese terminology, removing shoes, etc.

I like the bowing. It makes it more formal for me. If I were to eliminate anything cultural from the art, it would be removing the shoes. Far more benefits to wearing them than not - being barefoot during self defense isn't nearly as common as when wearing shoes, reducing foot disease transmission, reducing stress on the feet, and so on.

Sorta yes sorta no. There are Lineages that simply use the cultural norm. That is when I speak of the arts that follow what was codified for the warrior class as this eventually spread throughout society as a whole.

However there are specific Lineages that are very steeped in Shinto and the bowing was, to their mind related to the Shinto faith. There are also arts/lineages that were/are very steeped in Zen Buddhism and the bowing finds its purpose in that faith.

My issue with what Chris said had nothing to do with denying the fact that some Japanese Martial Arts do have the bowing with an origin in Shintoism. This is indeed true. My issue was that he made it sound like this is global in scope (in terms of Japanese Martial Arts) and this is not true.

PS if I misinterpreted and Chris did not mean "all forms of Japanese Karate have Shinto root and no other" then I will say "my bad."

 

[JR 137]

Sorta yes sorta no. There are Lineages that simply use the cultural norm. That is when I speak of the arts that follow what was codified for the warrior class as this eventually spread throughout society as a whole.

However there are specific Lineages that are very steeped in Shinto and the bowing was, to their mind related to the Shinto faith. There are also arts/lineages that were/are very steeped in Zen Buddhism and the bowing finds its purpose in that faith.

My issue with what Chris said had nothing to do with denying the fact that some Japanese Martial Arts do have the bowing with an origin in Shintoism. This is indeed true. My issue was that he made it sound like this is global in scope (in terms of Japanese Martial Arts) and this is not true.

PS if I misinterpreted and Chris did not mean "all forms of Japanese Karate have Shinto root and no other" then I will say "my bad."

I agree with what you're saying. I didn't mean to imply bowing was strictly cultural and never religious in origin. I was just stating a counterpoint to your "...there is no single reason for bowing in Japanese martial arts."

Edit: now that I reread it, I think you mean "no single reason" as not one reason, but many reasons why bowing is performed? I thought you meant there's no reason.

 

[Juany118]

I agree with what you're saying. I didn't mean to imply bowing was strictly cultural and never religious in origin. I was just stating a counterpoint to your "...there is no single reason for bowing in Japanese martial arts."

Edit: now that I reread it, I think you mean "no single reason" as not one reason, but many reasons why bowing is performed? I thought you meant there's no reason.

In terms of your edit, exactly. There is a reason. Some secular, some Shinto, some Buddhist etc. My issue was with what I saw as "one reason". That isn't true.

 

[Steve]

Yet again another post that is spot on by Chris that breaks down and explains exactly what everyone needs to hear but probably doesn't want to acknowledge. I see people trying to work around and that is okay. However, justify it as you want but it still is exactly what it is!

This post is a real shame.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

That might be true. But I would be uncomfortable participating in a religious ritual of any kind that appeared to show me as worshiping another deity than the God I believe in.

Along with that is the problem of being able to effectively witness to others about my beliefs and show them any worthwhile reason to seek salvation through the grace given by God.

If I am constantly showing myself willfully not living up to any of the standards of my religion, how can I encourage a non-believer that my religion is better than another?

Most Christians (but not all) agree that the Bible teaches once saved, always saved. Satan then must know that as well; that he cannot have our soul, no matter how much we backslide. But if he can convince me to act as above, he can damage my testimony to non-believers.

Therefore, I believe I must as little as possible, show anything that could be misinterpreted by non-believers.

And that's the larger point, OTH. This is a philosophical question on its face (is it worshiping/religion, or isn't it). However, within the bounds of your own situation, the only thing that really matters is your own beliefs on it.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

There are questions that Chris raised, that are interesting (I think).

Let's say I am a student at this school. If I were to join the United Martial Artist for Christ school, would I be participating in Christian rituals?

If yes, would participating in these rituals make me a Christian?

Would choosing not to participate in Christian aspects of this art mean that I am training in a shell of an art?

And the larger, implied questions. Is there a necessary, spiritual element to training in a martial art? And if so, must this spiritual component be Shinto if the art originated in Japan, or can it be replaced by, say a Christian spiritual element like at the United Martial Artists for Christ?

I'll tack on one more part, if you don't mind, Steve. Must the spiritual element (if one is included) be religious?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You are welcome to your opinion but as noted in my reply to the first post UMAFC is an outreach not a karate program. Why is it a problem if I want my martial arts to encompass my relationship with God?

He never said it was a problem, just that it doesn't make sense to him. It doesn't really make sense to me, either. And it need not, so long as it makes sense to those involved.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I'll give an example... I was teaching a Hanbo (three foot staff) technique last night... it's a fairly simple technique against a low strike to the body (which could also be a knife thrust, by the way), and the response is to strike down on top of the hand/wrist, then pull the staff back horizontally, in order to strike horizontally around to the side/back of the opponent. Okay, fairly simple... but, if it's a punch, is the arm still there for your strike down? And why a horizontal strike, when a thrust is right there, and easier to do? Well, it comes down to esoteric Shinto-ism.

The technique is from a branch of the Kukishin Ryu... who are famous for having, not just martial arts, but a family transmitted form of Shinto, called Nakatomi Shinto (not uncommon in Japanese arts). Within Shinto, there are concepts of protective spells and so forth, the best known being Kuji Kiri (nine syllable cutting), with the next level being Juji Kiri (ten syllable cutting)... with the "tenth syllable/character" being the spell being locked in in the first place. As a result, the striking method of the weapon is a vertical strike down, followed by a horizontal strike across... in Japanese, the character for "ten" (Ju - 十) is a cross... a vertical and horizontal line intersecting... which means that the technique is, not only a powerful way to strike, but a way of invoking a protective spell for your own well being when engaging in combat.

I don't think knowing anything about the spell is actually necessary to effectively use the technique. It's an interesting way to understand why it is taught that way, but there's no reason it has to be taught that particular way as the art evolves, unless that's the most effective approach to the technique. If it's actually the most effective set of movements, then it's not necessary to know that it's related to casting a spell.

So, one could learn effective use of that weapon, learning the techniques as they have evolved (or not evolved), without necessarily having any connection to the original religious context.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Regardless of anyone's personal religious beliefs, are you going to suggest that a Church is not a religious building except for Christians? A religious building is a religious building... maybe not your personal one, but it still is. You'd be hard pressed to not describe a synagogue, a mosque, a Buddhist Temple, a Shinto shrine, a Catholic Church, an abbey, a cathedral, a chapel as not being religious buildings, no matter what religion you particularly subscribe to (or not).

This comes back to one of my earlier points. Is a building that was once home to a religious order (say, a small retail-front church) religious after that order moves on? Of course not. Even if it was originally built as a religious building, it does not remain so forever if it is no longer used for religious purposes. (Note: We may continue to refer to it using the original terms, like "the old monastery", but if it's now a restaurant, it's not a religious building.)

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You're only seeing one (overt) representation of the influence of Shinto, though... honestly, there's going to be a lot more than you think... as well as a fair bit from Buddhism as well (even more in Ueshiba's Aikido, obviously)

You're looking at things from one angle, and I think it's a frankly overly-narrow viewpoint. If I understand you correctly, anything that was ever influenced by Shintoism that shows up in a MA gives that MA a direct link to Shintoism. I disagree with that, almost entirely. It's a philosophical statement, and is open to a large amount of personal debate, so your stance of absolutism on this seems unsupportable.

Now, if I'm misreading that, you may simply be stating that there are Shinto influences from the culture. I'd not argue that for a moment. Just as any MA that originated in the Southern states of the US in the last 200 years would probably have a lot of influence from Christianity, because bits of Christianity have become cultural in the area. That would not mean, however, that these hypothetical arts couldn't be separated from the religion without changing the art. The art is the physical principles (and sometimes the ethical/moral principles), and those can be taught, practiced, and performed in the complete absence of the religion (and even in the absence of understanding of it).

 

[Gerry Seymour]

So here's the question, Steve (and Gerry... and, well, most here)... how are you agreeing that the religious act of engaging in taking communion, which can be stripped down to having a drink and a bite to eat, is something that is definitely a religious act, yet a specifically Shinto ritual, taking place in a building whose purpose is for the study of religious ways and methods, is not necessarily one just because you don't automatically conflate it with a religious ritual or location you're familiar with?

Because the building I train in does not have the purpose of studying religious ways and methods. Entirely different situation.