Unarmed martial arts and self-defense law in the US

[dvcochran]

Not sure how you can disagree with what is a British norm, it may not be technically 'correct' but it is a British thing to do this ( and we've also been doing this a long long time before America in fact), that when we compare thing in this manner ( not everything obviously) we compare the younger to the older as simply because it was there first. Jewish law isn't 'like' American law, simply because it's a couple of thousand years older (and not actually the same) so obviously as American law was supposedly taken from Jewish law it must be compared against the older law.
People compare modern singers/actors/writers etc for example with older ones all the time. When introducing people don't you introduce the younger to the older as a matter of courtesy?

Never thought much about your last paragraph. The "common business protocol" as I was taught is, if going around the room at a meet and greet, introduce the party who is your guest to whoever you walk up to, age regardless. This assumes your party is newer to the room and you want them to feel welcome.
I do think I would follow your protocol in most instances however.

 

[Tez3]

Never thought much about your last paragraph. The "common business protocol" as I was taught is, if going around the room at a meet and greet, introduce the party who is your guest to whoever you walk up to, age regardless. This assumes your party is newer to the room and you want them to feel welcome.
I do think I would follow your protocol in most instances however.

It's what we were taught, British manners though are even now more formal that those in the USA. We'd also introduce lower 'ranked' people to the higher 'ranked' in business situations and if you move in circles where people have titles ( as in Lord, Sir, Lady, Dame etc). I'm not sure we do 'meet and greets' lol it sounds very informal. I'm used to formal events in the military ( and that can be very formal especially the army) and with various people I know are probably more formally polite than most. I would call Lord B by his first name usually but when introducing a stranger to him who didn't outrank him I would introduce him by title ( which confusingly is actually Baron) and surname not H****!

So you can see why our police officers are just about unfailingly polite even when throwing you in the back of police cars ( it's always mind your head)

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It's logical in these cases to compare younger with older, after all you'd say baby looked like dad not the other way around! We'd say that the Blackpool Tower was similar to the Eiffel Tower because the latter was built first and the former built in imitation.

We'd say that the same way (baby looks like dad). We'd also say, as the kid aged that the boy and his father look similar (no direction).

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Never thought much about your last paragraph. The "common business protocol" as I was taught is, if going around the room at a meet and greet, introduce the party who is your guest to whoever you walk up to, age regardless. This assumes your party is newer to the room and you want them to feel welcome.
I do think I would follow your protocol in most instances however.

It used to be the norm to introduce in the direction Tez mentioned. I've seen it recently (2 years ago) in a client's business communications training material. I ignored it - as you said, it's no longer something most business people would pay attention to.

 

[punisher73]

In the UK when an arrest is shown in the media with four or five officers holding a person down there's much comment about the waste of police manpower ie 'surely it doesn't take 5 officers to arrest' etc etc, however the case now is that to avoid accusations of using illegal holds, unnecessary force or violence police have to follow a protocol which mean officers to hold head, officers to hold arms and officers to hold legs. There is so much criticism whatever you do, an officer using a chokehold would bring howls of protest of police brutality, they see someone being 'choked to death' without understanding how that hold works.

the recent use of police bodycams which are showing the problems the police face with an increasingly violent public is shocking people at the moment, hopefully it's educating the public but I'm not holding my breath.

There was a recent case in New York (Eric Garner) where the officer took down an extremely overweight (and taller/larger) suspect using a neck restraint and once on the ground almost immediately lets go. The suspect ended up dying due to other complications, but the headline read that the suspect was killed using a "choke". If you watch the first initial contact that the officer attempts to apply the restraint until he is seen letting go is about 6-7 seconds. It is AFTER the restraint was let go that he starts saying he couldn't breathe. But, public perception is that it was the choke that killed him, even though he never lost consciousness. It was more likely a case of positional asphyxiation due to being almost 400 lbs and on his stomach.

Short clip above

 

[lklawson]

There was a recent case in New York (Eric Garner) where the officer took down an extremely overweight (and taller/larger) suspect using a neck restraint and once on the ground almost immediately lets go. The suspect ended up dying due to other complications, but the headline read that the suspect was killed using a "choke". If you watch the first initial contact that the officer attempts to apply the restraint until he is seen letting go is about 6-7 seconds. It is AFTER the restraint was let go that he starts saying he couldn't breathe. But, public perception is that it was the choke that killed him, even though he never lost consciousness. It was more likely a case of positional asphyxiation due to being almost 400 lbs and on his stomach.

Short clip above

I remember it. I got wore out trying to educate and correct uniformed people, with no experience or training, opining and insisting on policy changes.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[oftheherd1]

well clearly not, if you have a legal justication for using force no crime was committed, that why laws havestatutary defences built in, its part of the law, so no law was broken,

otherwise it would be true that you can break the law but not commit a crime and that would be silly,

That might be an interesting argument in a logic class. I don't know as I am no expert on logic.

And clearly you are no expert on USA law.

'Nuff said.

 

[pgsmith]

I remember it. I got wore out trying to educate and correct uninformed people, with no experience or training, opining and insisting on policy changes.

The problem being that in today's society most people want to be vindicated, not educated. Surprisingly few people are actually attempting to learn new things and expand their minds, despite the abundance of information available to learn almost anything. Perhaps it is this very over-abundance of information that causes people to be overwhelmed, and so they insist on what they "know" rather approaching life with an open mind and searching for truths.

Sorry, just rambling now ...

 

[punisher73]

I remember it. I got wore out trying to educate and correct uniformed people, with no experience or training, opining and insisting on policy changes.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Yep, me too. Not sure what the medical examiner was doing (political pressure/agenda) but they ruled: "Cause of Death: Compression of neck (choke hold), compression of chest and prone positioning during physical restraint by police" and "Contributing Conditions: Acute and chronic bronchial asthma; Obesity; Hypertensive cardiovascular disease".

I have NEVER seen a medical cause of death from a neck compression that the person never lost consciousness without any type of other factor, such as, blocked arteries or plaque buildup that caused continued damage. That neck hold (on video) is less than 7 seconds and it was not even secure for some of that time and Garner never lost consciousness. His death was fat and positional asphyxiation if I ever saw one. Granted, I'm not a doctor, but in my reading of medical implications of neck restraints are that there is no danger of death prior to the person losing consciousness. The problem and warning are ALWAYS if it is held too long.

 

[Tez3]

That might be an interesting argument in a logic class. I don't know as I am no expert on logic.

And clearly you are no expert on USA law.

'Nuff said.

No expert on UK law either.

 

[Tez3]

It used to be the norm to introduce in the direction Tez mentioned. I've seen it recently (2 years ago) in a client's business communications training material. I ignored it - as you said, it's no longer something most business people would pay attention to.

I would if working with Europeans though, it's taken quite seriously, the French especially expect the niceties to be observed. Often Americans are perceived as being rude, they aren't of course but their more laid back and friendly demeanor looks to many like rudeness when used on strangers. I don't find it rude just a little startling when an American who I have just met treats me like an old friend, not unpleasant but startling all the same.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I would if working with Europeans though, it's taken quite seriously, the French especially expect the niceties to be observed. Often Americans are perceived as being rude, they aren't of course but their more laid back and friendly demeanor looks to many like rudeness when used on strangers. I don't find it rude just a little startling when an American who I have just met treats me like an old friend, not unpleasant but startling all the same.

Training for interacting with a different culture is an entire topic. What each expects is quite different (though there's a lot of common expectations from Europe). The perception of rudeness goes both ways with the French - they tend to seem (to Americans) dismissive of new business acquaintances. And then there's the issue of punctuality dealing with Germans (who will absolutely walk out of a meeting at its scheduled ending time, I've been told).

 

[Tez3]

We'd say that the same way (baby looks like dad). We'd also say, as the kid aged that the boy and his father look similar (no direction).

Saying they look similar isn't the same as comparing them though.

 

[Tez3]

Training for interacting with a different culture is an entire topic. What each expects is quite different (though there's a lot of common expectations from Europe). The perception of rudeness goes both ways with the French - they tend to seem (to Americans) dismissive of new business acquaintances. And then there's the issue of punctuality dealing with Germans (who will absolutely walk out of a meeting at its scheduled ending time, I've been told).

The French are dismissive full stop. they do consider many non French rude for such things as not greeting the shop assistant when you walk in etc. Germans can be difficult to work with, I lived in Germany for three years, I've not known them to walk out but they do like precision in business and they do expect people not to be late or sloppy. They also because of past history are very defensive with Americans and Brits.

Obey all the rules of the road if in Germany, if you do not stop at a give way sign even if there's nothing coming you will be charged with a motoring offence. That's how they roll.

 

[PhotonGuy]

They don't actually say a single word about the case of the week until about 17:40.
Seems pretty straight forward to me. Don't use more force than is necessary.

That can be iffy, from a legal standpoint. Obviously you can't shoot a small child who takes a slap at you but lets say a grown man attacks you with his bare hands. You fight back with your bare hands and you stop him. Once he's no longer a threat you stop. If you were to continue to beat on him after he's no longer a threat that would not be a case of self defense since he's no longer attacking you. The fact of the matter is, you're both grown men, he's attacking with his bare hands, you're fighting back with your bare hands, and you stop when he stops. Based on that, it should be a clear case of self defense.

 

[dvcochran]

That can be iffy, from a legal standpoint. Obviously you can't shoot a small child who takes a slap at you but lets say a grown man attacks you with his bare hands. You fight back with your bare hands and you stop him. Once he's no longer a threat you stop. If you were to continue to beat on him after he's no longer a threat that would not be a case of self defense since he's no longer attacking you. The fact of the matter is, you're both grown men, he's attacking with his bare hands, you're fighting back with your bare hands, and you stop when he stops. Based on that, it should be a clear case of self defense.

Agree. The bigger question in when a weapon is involved. Do you have to show some level of restraint to stay out of the courtroom?

 

[Bruce7]

Self defense works most of the time in Texas so long as you don't kill someone important.

 

[drop bear]

There was a recent case in New York (Eric Garner) where the officer took down an extremely overweight (and taller/larger) suspect using a neck restraint and once on the ground almost immediately lets go. The suspect ended up dying due to other complications, but the headline read that the suspect was killed using a "choke". If you watch the first initial contact that the officer attempts to apply the restraint until he is seen letting go is about 6-7 seconds. It is AFTER the restraint was let go that he starts saying he couldn't breathe. But, public perception is that it was the choke that killed him, even though he never lost consciousness. It was more likely a case of positional asphyxiation due to being almost 400 lbs and on his stomach.

Short clip above

The interesting thing about neck restraints is that as bad as they look. They do stop peoples heads bouncing off the ground.

They are a really tricky for and against.

Oh. And crushed windpipe will kill a guy without the choke ko.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

The interesting thing about neck restraints is that as bad as they look. They do stop peoples heads bouncing off the ground.

They are a really tricky for and against.

Oh. And crushed windpipe will kill a guy without the choke ko.

Speaking as a bouncer, not a martial artist: Do you think neck restraints are actually safer overall then other types of restraints?

 

[drop bear]

Speaking as a bouncer, not a martial artist: Do you think neck restraints are actually safer overall then other types of restraints?

There are two considerations. If the neck restraint was done professionally buy a trained guy then yeah heaps safer. I have broken guys arms and legs locking guys up.

But bouncers will also tend to try and take a head home with them so then it becomes risky.