Unarmed Florida Teen Shot

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http://articles.orlandosentinel.com...120522_1_witnesses-change-shooting-fdle-agent

Evidence released last week in the second-degree-murder case against George Zimmerman shows four key witnesses made major changes in what they say they saw and heard the night he fatally shot 17-year-old Trayvon Martin in Sanford.
Three changed their stories in ways that may damage Zimmerman. A fourth abandoned her initial story, that she saw one person chasing another. Now, she says, she saw a single figure running.


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They were reinterviewed in mid-March, after Sanford police handed the case off to State Attorney Norm Wolfinger. The case changed hands again when Gov. Rick Scott passed it on to a special prosecutor. Zimmerman was arrested April 11 on a charge of second-degree murder.
Here are the key ways in which their stories changed.

Witness 2

A young woman who lives in the Retreat at Twin Lakes community, where Trayvon was shot, was interviewed twice by Sanford police and once by the Florida Department of Law Enforcement.
She told authorities that she had taken out her contact lenses just before the incident. In her first recorded interview with Sanford police four days after the shooting, she told lead Investigator Chris Serino, "I saw two guys running. Couldn't tell you who was in front, who was behind."
She stepped away from her window, and when she looked again, she "saw a fistfight. Just fists. I don't know who was hitting who."
A week later, she added a detail when talking again to Serino: During the chase, the two figures had been 10 feet apart.
That all changed when she was reinterviewed March 20 by an FDLE agent. Thattime, she recalled catching a glimpse of just one running figure, she told FDLE Investigator John Batchelor, and she heard the person more than saw him.
"I couldn't tell you if it was a man, a woman, a kid, black or white. I couldn't tell you because it was dark and because I didn't have my contacts on or glasses. … I just know I saw a person out there."

Witness 12

A young mother who is also a neighbor in the town-home community never gave a recorded interview to Sanford police, according to prosecution records released last week. She first sat down for an audio-recorded interview with an FDLE agent March 20, more than three weeks after the shooting.
During that session, she said she saw two people on the ground immediately after the shooting and was not sure who was on top, Zimmerman or Trayvon.
"I don't know which one. … All I saw when they were on the ground was dark colors," she said.
Six days later, however, she was sure: It was Zimmerman on top, she told trial prosecutor Bernie de la Rionda during a 21/2-minute recorded session.

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"I know after seeing the TV of what's happening, comparing their sizes, I think Zimmerman was definitely on top because of his size," she said.

Witness 6

This witnesslived a few feet from where Trayvon and Zimmerman had their fight. On the night of the shooting, he told Serino he saw a black man on top of a lighter-skinned man "just throwing down blows on the guy, MMA-style," a reference to mixed martial arts.
He also said the one calling for help was "the one being beat up," a reference to Zimmerman.
But three weeks later, when he was interviewed by an FDLE agent, the man said he was no longer sure which one called for help.
"I truly can't tell who, after thinking about it, was yelling for help just because it was so dark out on that sidewalk," he said.
He also said he was no longer sure Trayvon was throwing punches. The teenager may have simply been keeping Zimmerman pinned to the ground, he said.
He did not equivocate, though, about who was on top.
"The black guy was on top," he said.

Witness 13

He is important because he talked with Zimmerman and watched the way he behaved immediately after the shooting, before police arrived.
After this neighbor heard gunfire, he went outside and spotted Zimmerman standing there with"blood on the back of his head," he told Sanford police thenight of the shooting.
Zimmermantold him that Trayvon "was beating up on me, so I had to shoot him," the witness told Serino. The Neighborhood Watch captain then asked the witness to call his wife, Shellie Zimmerman, and tell her what happened.
In two subsequent interviews about a month later — one with an FDLE investigator and one with de la Rionda — the witness described Zimmerman's demeanor in greater detail, adding that he spoke as if the shooting were no big deal.
Zimmerman's tone, the witness said,was "not like 'I can't believe I just shot someone!' — it was more like, 'Just tell my wife I shot somebody …,' like it was nothing."
Those witnesses are likely to be interviewed at least once more before Zimmerman's trial. Defense attorneys in Florida routinely question witnesses under oath as they prepare for trial.

Hmm...so much for the supposed eye witness testimony. When I was reading this story in my local paper, the first thing that came to my mind was, "Why did they change their stories?" Were they scared into making the changes by someone? Did they change their stories after they thought, "Gee, if I dont say the right thing, I may be a target." Did they realize, after all was said and done, that perhaps they honestly made a mistake with their inital stories? Who knows, and we'll probably never know.
 

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http://articles.orlandosentinel.com...120522_1_witnesses-change-shooting-fdle-agent



Hmm...so much for the supposed eye witness testimony. When I was reading this story in my local paper, the first thing that came to my mind was, "Why did they change their stories?" Were they scared into making the changes by someone? Did they change their stories after they thought, "Gee, if I dont say the right thing, I may be a target." Did they realize, after all was said and done, that perhaps they honestly made a mistake with their inital stories? Who knows, and we'll probably never know.

Sometimes people get a little caught up in the "media event". Take for instance, Witness 12 who always believed that it was Zimmerman on top because media had us believing that Trayvon was still 14 years old. It made sense to her--at the time--that Zimmerman was probably the bigger guy. In reality, it may have been the other way around.

And sometimes people just realize that the stakes are too high to be wrong or embellishing.
 

billc

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Here is a look at the witnesses and their changes...

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Govern...itnesses-changed-testimony-after-media-frenzy
Another witness said on March 20 that she saw two people on the ground after the shots were fired and was not sure who was on top: “I don't know which one … All I saw when they were on the ground was dark colors.”
But on March 26, her memory suddenly cleared; she told the trial prosecutor that she was sure it was Zimmerman on top. And how did she suddenly remember with such clarity? “I know after seeing the TV of what's happening, comparing their sizes, I think Zimmerman was definitely on top because of his size,” she said.
 

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Let me pose a related question, to everyone, not Just Dan. Lets say you ****ed up and found yourself in this position. Maybe you thought you were doing the right thing, maybe you were just trying to be a tough guy... whatever, now **** has gone south, this guy is on top of you pounding your skull into the pavement, no one is responding to your cries for help and you think "ohshitohshitohshitohshitImgonnadie".

How many of you would go "Well, I ****ed up by following him, so this is my fault I deserve to die" and let him kill you?

How many of you would Shoot to save yourselves?

OR: To put it another way: Just because Zimmerman was a douchebag who doesn't listen, did he deserve to be killed by Travon?

Exactly you make my point!! to carry a fire arm as a non law enforcement person carries risk for you period not just the other person!! The mature MA person looks to avoid confrontation not just out of a moral code but common sense of what the risks are and why do it if its not necessary I am far more worried in 9 out of 10 cases about my hurting the other person unless multiple people with deadly force then all bets off. One person gets punched a single time paralized for life from hips down another trips and falls hits head and dies that is the potential to happen in every case from the time you open your mouth in confrontation go ahead do what you want what you think but don'w whine about it later becasue you put yourself in harms way.
 

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To me there were bad decisions made all the way around here. Zimmerman should have left well enough alone after he called the cops, as the dispatcher suggested. Martin should not have turned to confront the fellow following him and just went home. Because of those bad decisions a young man is dead. It surely is a life lesson for anyone paying attention. Sometimes you don't get to go "Oops! My bad!" and go on as if nothing happened. Some decisions are life changing without a redo button.

I do not know if there is anything criminal in Zimmerman's actions. I think they were less than smart, but that isn't neccesarily the same thing. That is why we have a court system. Let them do thier job.
 

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And sometimes people just realize that the stakes are too high to be wrong or embellishing.

And other times the stakes are too high to be right.

That's from 22+ years of marital experience. ;)

 

billc

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Some more possible info. that discredits the zimmerman as racist idea...

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Govern...e-Zimmerman-Black-Homeless-Man-Sanford-Police

We're learning today that just last year, at a public forum, George Zimmerman publicly testified against the Sanford police department in defense of a homeless black man. In other words, what we have here is more proof that the media narrative surrounding the shooting of Trayvon Martin might just end up being the most disgraced and failed media narrative since Duke-LaCrosse and the Tuscon murders.


George Zimmerman accused the Sanford police department of corruption more than a year before he shot Trayvon Martin, saying at a public forum the agency covered up the beating of a black homeless man by the son of a white officer.
"I would just like to state that the law is written in black and white," Zimmerman said during a 90-second statement to city commissioners at a community forum. "It should not and cannot be enforced in the gray for those who are in the thin blue line."
The forum took place on Jan. 8, 2011, days after a video of the beating went viral on the Internet and then-Sanford Police Chief Brian Tooley was forced to retire. Tooley's department faced criticism for dragging its feet in arresting Justin Collison, the son of a police lieutenant.
The media narrative fail here is a triple shot. If Zimmerman is supposedly some kind of yee-haw law and order type eager to play racist cop, why in the world would he publicly accuse the Sanford police of corruption with a special emphasis on the Chief -- all in defense of a homeless black man beaten by the white son of a white Sanford police officer. It's not like someone threw a microphone in Zimmerman's face either. He proactively went to, attended, and spoke out at this meeting:
"I'd like to know what action the commission is taking in order to repeal Mr. Tooley's pension," Zimmerman said to the commission. "I'm not asking you to repeal his pension; I believe he's already forfeited his pension by his illegal cover-up in corruption in what happened in his department."
The third corner in this triangle of media narrative fail is that after Trayvon was shot and killed, many in the media questioned Zimmerman's supposed "cozy relationship" with the Sanford police -- that this had something to do with Zimmerman not being charged with a crime.

I have also heard that Zimmerman's grandfather is an african american, has this been verified?
 

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A new look at the timeline of the shooting...and Trayvon Martin...

http://www.americanthinker.com/2012/06/what_the_media_choose_not_to_know_about_trayvon.html

The sites I have found must useful are the Daily Caller and theconservativetreehouse.com. What follows is largely culled from those sites and their independent contributors. By probing Trayon's background and parsing his social media chatter, they have put together a picture of a disturbed young man that begins to makes sense of the events that unfolded on that fateful rainy night of February 26.
 

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billc

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The latest...a video description from the police that they took with Zimmerman the day after the shooting...pretty interesting in that it is a video of Zimmerman, in his own words, recounting the incident the very next day...

http://abcnews.go.com/US/george-zimmermans-reenactment-trayvon-martin-shooting/story?id=16616864#.T-MtJFJ7SuJ

The latest and most detailed account yet of what happened in Sanford, Fla., on Feb. 26 comes from a voice stress test that Zimmerman passed, along with a video re-enactment, a handwritten statement and audio interviews conducted in the days after the shooting by investigators.

The material was released by Zimmerman's attorney today on the website gzlegalcase.com, a website managed by the Zimmerman defense team.


 
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http://www.courant.com/sns-rt-usa-floridashooting-pixl2e8hqgrc-20120626,0,6855022,full.story

Gee, imagine that.

MIAMI, June 26 (Reuters) - George Zimmerman, the man charged
in the killing of Trayvon Martin, failed on at least two
opportunities to identify himself as a neighborhood watch
volunteer before he shot the unarmed teenager, a police
investigator wrote in a report made public on Tuesday.

Pages of the report were among a batch of new evidence
released in the case by Florida's state attorney's office. The
records included video and audio recordings of Zimmerman and
written statements by him and police.

Zimmerman, 28, shot and killed Martin, 17, during a
confrontation in a gated community in Sanford, Florida, on Feb.
26. Martin was walking back from a store when Zimmerman called a
911 dispatcher and said the teen looked suspicious and then
followed him.

Zimmerman is being held in a Florida jail charged with
second-degree murder and faces 25 years to life if convicted. No
trial date has been set yet.

In a report detailing the police investigation into the
shooting, Sanford Police Detective Christopher Serino wrote that
Zimmerman "had at least two opportunities to speak with Trayvon
Benjamin Martin in order to defuse the circumstances surrounding
their encounter."
 

jks9199

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Did he have some sort of duty to identify himself as any sort of volunteer? Of course, that also lead to the question of whether or not Trayvon Martin had any duty or responsibility to identify himself to Zimmerman, too...
 
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Did he have some sort of duty to identify himself as any sort of volunteer? Of course, that also lead to the question of whether or not Trayvon Martin had any duty or responsibility to identify himself to Zimmerman, too...

Don't know if its part of the Florida neighborhood watch program, to ID him/her self. However, it would only make sense (yeah, I know, common sense is lacking more often than not!) especially if you're in plain clothes with nothing to immediately identify yourself as a LEO, security, etc, ie: such as a uniform would, to announce yourself, rather than just walk up behind someone.
 

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When they set the trial date how much of it will the public get to see for themselves or will the evidence given just be what's reported in the press?
Must admit I don't understand why so much of the witnesses statements etc are being allowed to be printed or broadcast, surely it's sub judice or don't you have that? Here that begins as soon as someone is arrested, it's not a gagging order but a device to allow as fair a trial as possible. Justice takes precedence over a public's right to be scandalised and tittilated by gossip and speculation. We could demand that we are told all the tittle tattle but if it were us in the dock I doubt we'd insist on the public's 'right to know' what colour underwear we wore etc etc.We'd want a fair trial. It seems that both people involved in this case have been tried and found guilty, both have been tried and found innocent depending on the political stance of the person reading the media output. Is there any chance of a fair trial now?
 

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Very good question.

And with the coverage this case has gotten, the next county is not a guarantee for an untainted jury pool.
 

billc

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The first "opportunity," was when Martin passed by his truck, and the other one was right before Zimmerman says the assault started. If Zimmerman was surprised to find Martin in front of him, it wouldn't be a stretch to think he wouldn't have had the thought to say he was a member of the watch. The first opportunity? The guy passed by his vehicle, and Zimmerman called 911 which avoided an actual confrontation, which goes to Zimmerman not wanting to directly deal with Martin. Only later, when Martin apparently surprised Zimmerman, was there a confilict.
 

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Don't know if its part of the Florida neighborhood watch program, to ID him/her self. However, it would only make sense (yeah, I know, common sense is lacking more often than not!) especially if you're in plain clothes with nothing to immediately identify yourself as a LEO, security, etc, ie: such as a uniform would, to announce yourself, rather than just walk up behind someone.

From the dispatch tapes, he was never close enough to talk with him until Martin came back to confront him. Zimmerman tells the dispatch that "he ran" and didn't know where he went. Martin was close enough to the house he was staying at that he could have just went there safely. Martin came back to confront Zimmerman, who knows why Zimmerman didn't try and identify himself then. But, like someone else pointed out. If you have an aggressive person coming at you, you might not think about it.
 

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Or if you have an aggressive person stalking or following you ....

Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk 2
 

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Or if you have an aggressive person stalking or following you ....

Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk 2

How is that following, when the person stops and tells dispatch that he doesn't know where the guy ran, and is heading back to his truck. The other person forgoes going home to safety and then circles around to confront the other person?
 
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From the dispatch tapes, he was never close enough to talk with him until Martin came back to confront him. Zimmerman tells the dispatch that "he ran" and didn't know where he went. Martin was close enough to the house he was staying at that he could have just went there safely. Martin came back to confront Zimmerman, who knows why Zimmerman didn't try and identify himself then. But, like someone else pointed out. If you have an aggressive person coming at you, you might not think about it.

Forgive me for asking this, as its been a while and this thread is huge, but wasn't there some point in which GZ was close enough to TM to physically see him? If thats the case, and GZ was that concerned as to who TM was, he probably could've easily yelled to him. Another reason I say this is because IIRC, TM did notice that he was being followed. Didn't he mention that to his girlfriend, while he was on the phone? I got the impression that TM knew that someone was behind him, just that he wasn't sure who was following him.
 
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