Uechi-Ryu Karate - SanSeiRyu Bunkai Demonstration

[TimoS]

Untill we find a Chinese style with the exact forms that are practiced in Uechi ryu all claims of relationship are nothing but conjecture.

That might actually be quite hard, because the Chinese style might have "evolved", that is to say that it might look somewhat different now than it did during Kanbun Uechi's days. During the 100 or so years it
might have had several generations of instructors, each of whom might have changed what they learned slightly. Look at e.g. Chotoku Kyan's students' Shorin(ji) styles, such as Zenryo Shimaburo's Seibukan and Joen Nakazato's Kyudokan, or Tatsuo Shimabukuro's Isshin ryu. Outwardly they look different although all of them studied with Kyan around the same time. They just all had a slightly different idea about how what they learned should look.

 

[hoshin1600]

The story goes that there were 4 forms in the system but that Kanbun only knew 3. The 4th is suparinpei. Kanbun returned home for a short time and had left china.

 

[hoshin1600]

The forms may have changed some but 100 years is not that long ago, my house is older.. It is very evident that uechi, goju and ryuei Ryu share a similar back round. I have yet to see a Chinese form that shares these common factors and blue print This conversation is nothing new. There have been many interactions between the Okinawa,Chinese and Americans trying to learn more about the history. The last clip I posted was of sensei Tomoyose he is in his 90s. I am sure he has heard all these claims over and over. If any of them had turned up with any new information I know for a fact the entire uechi community would know by now.

 

[TimoS]

True. By the way, I recently saw an interesting video where someone was doing "uechi-like" forms and out of curiosity I would like to know more about their possible relation to Uechi ryu karate. I'll try to find it when I get back home. Any opinions and especially facts would be much appreciated

 

[qianfeng]

this video is labeled as whooping crane but also as "tiger crane" and in the video it says white crane..so i am not sure of the style but it is the same form that you posted.

however whether they be tiger or crane they are not the same form as the uechi form

they are similar, but being similar is not being the same. ALL styles that come out of that area and time look the same. they all have the same basic components and feel.

i would not take my information from WIKI pedia.. but yes Shu shi wa is not Chinese but rather Okinawan.



i am not really sure what you are trying to point out. yes those forms where named using a combination of both Kanbun and Shu shi wa's names. it is common knowledge.

Kanbun Uechi taught in China. If his style was "reverent tiger fist" he would have called it by that name but he didn't, he called it Pangai noon. if he had learned reverent tiger fist the system he taught and that we practice today would have the same ...the exact same... forms and the rest of the entire curriculum. Kanbun only knew 3 forms Sanchin, Seisan, and sanseiryu. two of these forms are the same as other styles of Okinawan karate, Goju-ryu and Ryuei-ryu.

Both Goju ryu and Ryuei-ru founders learnt in China from a man they call Ru Ru Ko. again these styles have strong ties to a crane system just like Uechi ryu.

when looking at and trying to uncover martial art history it is not uncommon for one style to put "claims" on other styles. an unknown or new style might claim to be related to a better known famous style and an older style may make claims that a newer style that has more popularity is a branch of their system. Talk is cheep as they say. the proof is in the forms and the style curriculum. similar is not being the same. Uechi may have been influenced by Tiger fist but his forms and curriculum are not the same ,therefore it would be an inaccurate statement to say they are the same style. this history only happened 100 years ago. it is not that long ago. Kanbun Uechi's students in Okinawa and from China have tried to preserve the system they were taught without deviation. i could name maybe 100 Fuzhou styles that all look similar. Untill we find a Chinese style with the exact forms that are practiced in Uechi ryu all claims of relationship are nothing but conjecture.

What i was saying was i had the right characters for Shu shi wa 周子和 and 周子和 was a master of the reverent tiger style. If Uechi lenrt from Shu shi wa then he learnt his style unless Shu shu wa taught some random stuff he made up.

 

[qianfeng]

this video is labeled as whooping crane but also as "tiger crane" and in the video it says white crane..so i am not sure of the style but it is the same form that you posted.

however whether they be tiger or crane they are not the same form as the uechi form

they are similar, but being similar is not being the same. ALL styles that come out of that area and time look the same. they all have the same basic components and feel.

i would not take my information from WIKI pedia.. but yes Shu shi wa is not Chinese but rather Okinawan.



i am not really sure what you are trying to point out. yes those forms where named using a combination of both Kanbun and Shu shi wa's names. it is common knowledge.

Kanbun Uechi taught in China. If his style was "reverent tiger fist" he would have called it by that name but he didn't, he called it Pangai noon. if he had learned reverent tiger fist the system he taught and that we practice today would have the same ...the exact same... forms and the rest of the entire curriculum. Kanbun only knew 3 forms Sanchin, Seisan, and sanseiryu. two of these forms are the same as other styles of Okinawan karate, Goju-ryu and Ryuei-ryu.

Both Goju ryu and Ryuei-ru founders learnt in China from a man they call Ru Ru Ko. again these styles have strong ties to a crane system just like Uechi ryu.

when looking at and trying to uncover martial art history it is not uncommon for one style to put "claims" on other styles. an unknown or new style might claim to be related to a better known famous style and an older style may make claims that a newer style that has more popularity is a branch of their system. Talk is cheep as they say. the proof is in the forms and the style curriculum. similar is not being the same. Uechi may have been influenced by Tiger fist but his forms and curriculum are not the same ,therefore it would be an inaccurate statement to say they are the same style. this history only happened 100 years ago. it is not that long ago. Kanbun Uechi's students in Okinawa and from China have tried to preserve the system they were taught without deviation. i could name maybe 100 Fuzhou styles that all look similar. Untill we find a Chinese style with the exact forms that are practiced in Uechi ryu all claims of relationship are nothing but conjecture.

I didnt say they were the same style, I meanr reverent tiger is what Uechi based his system on. Their forms will never look exactly the same, have you seen a karate and kung fu form that looks exactly the same? Probably not becuase both arts will change over time and unless you cant time travel you wont be able to see what the form was like when Uechi first learnt it.

 

[hoshin1600]

What i was saying was i had the right characters for Shu shi wa 周子和 and 周子和 was a master of the reverent tiger style. If Uechi lenrt from Shu shi wa then he learnt his style unless Shu shu wa taught some random stuff he made up.

From this statement you have answered your own question from your original post

I dont know why they people always say uechi ryu is based of something called pangainoon (half soft hard) as this style doesnt exist. The man Kanbun Uechi studied under was a master of a style called 虎尊拳 reverent tiger fist. This is fairly common knowledge in China i dont know why it's not known any where else.

Uechi-ryu is not BASED on pangainoon, that was what Kanbun Uechi called the art he was teaching.
You may have noticed Shinyu Gushi in the clip that was posted did not call his style uechi-ryu he called it pangainoon
it is common knowledge that s Shu Shi wa did Tiger fist. The question is where did the crane and dragon movements come from. Did Shu Shi Wa also teach other systems? Some historians say yes he did. Kanbun never mentioned any other source or teachers. He did know Mr. Gogenki who was a crane stylist.
We do know that the system Kanbun taught has been past on intact.
Kanbun knew three forms and only sanchin is even vaguely similar to tiger fist. But sanchin is more famous in the crane systems. So we are back to the same questions that have been around for 100 years.

 

[hoshin1600]

Kanbun claims to only have one teacher and the forms and over all curriculum do not match tiger fist style. There has been a lot of research done on this and it has been determined that in all probability any claims or knowledge of someone by that name is probably not the same Shu Shi Wa.
Would Reverent tiger fist like to be linked to a karate style that is known all over the world? Yes....but we will never know the truth.

 

[Flying Crane]

Just a quick by-the-way, there are fifteen or so species of cranes, several of which are indigenous to various parts of Asia. The Whooping Crane is a particular species found only in North America, highly highly endangered now. But I believe it has never been native to Asia. I only point this out as there then would be no Chinese method known as Whooping Crane. I do believe, however,that there is a branch of Fujian white crane that is known as Calling Crane.

I just noticed in some earlier posts, someone was making reference to a Whooping Crane style. It does not exist.

 

[qianfeng]

I'm guesi

Just a quick by-the-way, there are fifteen or so species of cranes, several of which are indigenous to various parts of Asia. The Whooping Crane is a particular species found only in North America, highly highly endangered now. But I believe it has never been native to Asia. I only point this out as there then would be no Chinese method known as Whooping Crane. I do believe, however,that there is a branch of Fujian white crane that is known as Calling Crane.

I just noticed in some earlier posts, someone was making reference to a Whooping Crane style. It does not exist.

The name's not based off spices names.... It's just adjectives added before crane. I think he meant 鸣鹤拳 which is Calling or Crying Crane.

 

[Flying Crane]

I'm guesi


The name's not based off spices names.... It's just adjectives added before crane. I think he meant 鸣鹤拳 which is Calling or Crying Crane.

That would make sense, of course. I do realize it was probably a mistranslation, but people might think they can add any descriptive, but it often doesn't work when talking about a specific species, which a whooping crane is.

 

[Seizan]

Hello All,

I haven't been on line here for some time. However most of these points have been previously discussed quite fully elswhere for several years.

Here in the MartialTalk forums I was involved with some information exchange regarding the term (not the name) "pangainoon", Shuu Shiwa, and related topics some time back. If you're interested, that info is posted here:

Pan Gai Noon - dead martial art MartialTalk.Com - Friendly Martial Arts Forum Community

I will be happy to discuss a few more points but not on a public forum, please. My teacher Toyama Sensei was a direct longtime student of the Founder of UechiRyu, and was the Vice President of the UechiRyu KarateDo Kyokai until he retired from Soke in 1970's to look after his family. Nothing he taught me was contradictory to what may be found in the 19778 UechiRyu Kyohon, endorsed (not written) by Uechi Kanei Sensei.

Not sure if it's allowed to post my home e-mail (which is about to change soon anyway, as I will be changing Internet providers), but you can find me via my website as posted in my profile information.

By the way,

~ Tomoyose Sensei is 85 years old, not in his 90's (born in December 1928), and

~ Shuu Sifu mastered 17 (or 19?) animal systems before he was out of his teens. He taught a "custom mixture" of animals styles to his students as he saw fit for that individual. However he had one style based on 7 animals styles that he kept for himself. This is the style he taught to Kanbun Sensei, which is now known as UechiRyu.

~ Kanbun Sensei told many times that his teacher in China was Shuu Shiwa (also Shuu Shabu, depending on the dialectic pronunciation). This is recorded in the Kyohon in Kanei Sensei's own words, and told us by Toyama Sensei. It is a puzzle as to why some folks are trying so hard to dissociate UechiRyu from Shuu Shiwa today when Kanbun Sensei, Kanei Sensei, and others state otherwise.

~ Kanbun Sensei had very solid reasons for not telling or advertising the real name of his Chinese fighting style. This might be obvious if you know a bit of the Japanese-Chinese socio-political situation since the late 1800's up to the WW2 era.

There is so much more, but the meow is not the cat. Happy to share but on a more individual level, please.

Best from Nagahama,

Seizan

 

[Seizan]

Oops... Sorry, that is the 1977 UechiRyu Kyohon. Fingers arguing with the keyboard today...

;-)

 

[Touch Of Death]

Hello All,

I haven't been on line here for some time. However most of these points have been previously discussed quite fully elswhere for several years.

Here in the MartialTalk forums I was involved with some information exchange regarding the term (not the name) "pangainoon", Shuu Shiwa, and related topics some time back. If you're interested, that info is posted here:

Pan Gai Noon - dead martial art MartialTalk.Com - Friendly Martial Arts Forum Community

I will be happy to discuss a few more points but not on a public forum, please. My teacher Toyama Sensei was a direct longtime student of the Founder of UechiRyu, and was the Vice President of the UechiRyu KarateDo Kyokai until he retired from Soke in 1970's to look after his family. Nothing he taught me was contradictory to what may be found in the 19778 UechiRyu Kyohon, endorsed (not written) by Uechi Kanei Sensei.

Not sure if it's allowed to post my home e-mail (which is about to change soon anyway, as I will be changing Internet providers), but you can find me via my website as posted in my profile information.

By the way,

~ Tomoyose Sensei is 85 years old, not in his 90's (born in December 1928), and

~ Shuu Sifu mastered 17 (or 19?) animal systems before he was out of his teens. He taught a "custom mixture" of animals styles to his students as he saw fit for that individual. However he had one style based on 7 animals styles that he kept for himself. This is the style he taught to Kanbun Sensei, which is now known as UechiRyu.

~ Kanbun Sensei told many times that his teacher in China was Shuu Shiwa (also Shuu Shabu, depending on the dialectic pronunciation). This is recorded in the Kyohon in Kanei Sensei's own words, and told us by Toyama Sensei. It is a puzzle as to why some folks are trying so hard to dissociate UechiRyu from Shuu Shiwa today when Kanbun Sensei, Kanei Sensei, and others state otherwise.

~ Kanbun Sensei had very solid reasons for not telling or advertising the real name of his Chinese fighting style. This might be obvious if you know a bit of the Japanese-Chinese socio-political situation since the late 1800's up to the WW2 era.

There is so much more, but the meow is not the cat. Happy to share but on a more individual level, please.

Best from Nagahama,

Seizan

I look forward to seeing you in non-martial art portions.

 

[Seizan]

I look forward to seeing you in non-martial art portions.

Oh. Am I to be drawn and quartered?

Again...?

 

[Tames D]

Seizan,
I'm turned off by your secretive nature. Share with all or don't share at all.

 

[Seizan]

I'm turned off by your secretive nature. Share with all or don't share at all.

Why would it offend or even concern anyone that I prefer to take a more discrete sharing of information off-forum?

 

[TimoS]

Why would it offend or even concern anyone that I prefer to take a more discrete sharing of information off-forum?

Well, it kind of defeats the idea of discussion forum Not that I mind, I just understand the logic why someone might be upset about it.

 

[Seizan]

I have been a member of MartialTalk for a relatively short time compared to some others, and do not post often because of my teaching job, dojo duties, and family focus. However when I do post, I try to share information that helps resolve questions, or that augments sparse historical information.

Not everything in history (be it a person, place, event, or development of an art form) is known (and frustratingly enough, some is not meant to be known). But quite a lot about UechiRyu and its history is already published -- some of it in other languages, but still available as a published piece, article, magazine, book, video, etc.

For many years I posted information, research, and translations from Japanese on George E. Mattson’s Eastern Arts forums. It would be nearly impossible to collect and encapsulate all that information. So when I ask to be contacted off-line on any specific topic, I do my best to honor the correspondent by providing what I have on hand, and directing him to a collected list of forum entries (links) in which he may find much more detailed information, possibly more than he thought existed. At 61, I spent 41 years training in UechiRyu (the past 36 on Okinawa, and the last 17 under the top senior in the system) and learned at least a few hard-earned lesser-known facts about the system and its history. But I found that much has already been published, just not shared with foreigners very much. And so I am willing to share with those who need or appreciate it. But it would mean little to, say, a long-time practitioner of TKD, or a boxer, or some other non-related system, unless he was seriously researching to make a change to UechiRyu. So not too many actually care enough to contact me for this information, which indicates to me that not many readers feel they would benefit from it in the first place...

Also, I’m not sure if it’s OK to post links to another forum – on this forum. Maybe it is, but somehow it disagrees with my sense of propriety. So I prefer to take some discussions off line.

You were not, to my knowledge, excluded from that invitation...

So -- I am not teasing anyone with “secretiveness”; rather I do offer to share – just in a more personal manner. If this can be understood by other forum members, I’m gratified...

Best,

Seizan

 

[Touch Of Death]

Oh. Am I to be drawn and quartered?

Again...?

Sounds like fun.