Two forms

[IcemanSK]

There are 2 forms in the cirriculum of the TKD organization I belong to that are from the earilest days of TKD in Korea (Late 50's or early 60's). They are referred to as kata (rather than poomsae). The are Ba Sai & Yum Bee. Are these Shotokan forms? Or are they Tang Soo Do? Or other?

I thought I'd ask here first before I went to my instructor.

Thanks

 

[Martial Tucker]

There are 2 forms in the cirriculum of the TKD organization I belong to that are from the earilest days of TKD in Korea (Late 50's or early 60's). They are referred to as kata (rather than poomsae). The are Ba Sai & Yum Bee. Are these Shotokan forms? Or are they Tang Soo Do? Or other?

I thought I'd ask here first before I went to my instructor.

Thanks

Shotokan has two kata called Bassai Dai, and Bassai Sho,
that I am aware of. I'm pretty sure Bassai Dai is also used in Tang Soo Do, but I'm not 100% certain. Not sure if Bassai Sho is used in Tang Soo Do. If/when Upnorthkyosa reads this, you'll get a better answer.

Yum Bee, I've never heard of. Interesting....

 

[Makalakumu]

I'm not sure what Yum Be is without seeing it. Sometimes TKD renames the classical forms. Bassai on the other hand is an Okinawan form that was transferred to Japan and then was transferred to Korea. This form is very complex and very deadly. There are so many good applications that ,in some arts, it is the backbone.

Tang Soo Do practices Bassai Dai and Sho...but the truth is that both of the Bassai hyung are ubiquitous throughout the arts. In fact, I read that they both are the most ubiquitous.

 

[terryl965]

Upnorth is correct Bassia is a great Kata and my son wins so many competition with it for the complexity of said form. It is from Okinawa and transfererred from Japan to Korea and Yum Be I dod not know do you have a video or the outline of said form.
Terry

 

[Miles]

Bassai is indeed a cool form. Yun Bee is "Empi" in Japanese Shotokan.

Miles

 

[rmclain]

Bassai is indeed a cool form. Yun Bee is "Empi" in Japanese Shotokan.

Miles

Just to add to this, Yun Bee or Empi is also known as "Wan Shu." It is originally an Okinawan Tomari-te form. The name means, "Flying Swallow."

R. McLain

 

[IcemanSK]

Thank you all. I've only seen the forms done a few times. They do look really interesting.

I appreciate the fact I can come on here & get detailed intelligent answers that are helpful.

I spent a great deal of time in my MA career either being lied to or being lead to believe that answers like this one are things "noone knows."

Thank you again.:asian:

 

[IcemanSK]

Upnorth is correct Bassia is a great Kata and my son wins so many competition with it for the complexity of said form. It is from Okinawa and transfererred from Japan to Korea and Yum Be I dod not know do you have a video or the outline of said form.
Terry

I do have a dvd of both forms. They are really neat. I just need to wait until I test for 4th Dan (Many moons from now!) to work on them. I like to study ahead.

 

[Martial Tucker]

I'm not sure what Yum Be is without seeing it. Sometimes TKD renames the classical forms. Bassai on the other hand is an Okinawan form that was transferred to Japan and then was transferred to Korea. This form is very complex and very deadly. There are so many good applications that ,in some arts, it is the backbone.

Tang Soo Do practices Bassai Dai and Sho...but the truth is that both of the Bassai hyung are ubiquitous throughout the arts. In fact, I read that they both are the most ubiquitous.

I would have to agree, and if you look at the movements of Bassai Dai, you will see many things that ultimately ended up in several of the TKD Palgue forms, in particular, Sa Jang and Chil Jang

 

[Miles]

Just to add to this, Yun Bee or Empi is also known as "Wan Shu." It is originally an Okinawan Tomari-te form. The name means, "Flying Swallow."

That's a good point. It's also curiously absent from the Tang Soo Do curricula of which I am familiar. I say "curious" because many people look at Tang Soo Do and see the Shotokan influence.

Miles

 

[IcemanSK]

Bassai has a repeated lunge punch (at least twice). And Yum Bee begins w/ a leaping backfist forward. Are these the same forms that we've been discussing?

 

[rmclain]

And Yum Bee begins w/ a leaping backfist forward. Are these the same forms that we've been discussing?

That's not the Yun Bee I know. Bassai Tae starts with a skipping/leaping forward backfist. Otherwise, I don't know the form "Yun Bee" you've mentioned.

R. McLain

 

[IcemanSK]

I'm doing some checking on it w/ a my Okinawan Stylist friend. I'll letcha know what I find out.

 

[Martial Tucker]

Bassai has a repeated lunge punch (at least twice). And Yum Bee begins w/ a leaping backfist forward. Are these the same forms that we've been discussing?

And, if Yum Bee is supposed to be the same thing as Empi, there is no leaping backfist in Empi, either.

 

[Last Fearner]

Iceman,

Although I have known the WTF Black Belt forms for a number of years, my recent joining with the U.S. Chung Do Kwan under Sr. Grandmaster Sell (back in 2000), has led me to be required to learn the six Black Belt forms they teach side-by-side with the WTF forms (Dhalee hyung 1st form, Dhalee hyung 2nd form, Ba sai, Yumbee, Dhalee hyung 3rd form, and Dhalee hyung 4th form).

Grandmaster Al Smith (my teacher) taught all six of these forms to myself and a group of Black Belts about 3 weeks ago, and I have spent the past 3 weeks memorizing them. Now, I'm trying to get them perfected for the National Conference next week!

Anyhow, I just noticed, in the back of General Choi's Taekwon-do book (published in 1965) he has a section of Karate forms after his "Ch'ang Hon" forms. He says that they are of the "Sho-rin and Sho-Rei schools."

The following is an excerpt from Generl Choi's book:

"These two schools are Japanese and Okinawa in origin. However, their history and derivation are not definitely known.
The Sho-Rin School is characterized by light and speedy movements and is suitable for a light person. The Hei-An, Bat-Sai, Kouh-Shang-Kouh, En-Bi and Ro-Hai are the typical patterns of this school.
The Sho-Rei School, on the other hand, requires slow and forceful movements for the purpose of muscle development, and is favoured by a student of heavier frame. The Tet-Ki, Han-Getsu and Ji-On are the representative patterns of this school."

[following are the description of the forms that General Choi gives]

"HEI-AN: means safety and peacefulness.
This name is obtained from the fact that anyone who has
mastered this type is able to protect himself or herself
easily in any unforseen situation.

BAT-SAI: means to break through the fortress.
By alertness and skilful release of hand, in case of being
grabbed, one can put the opponent in an untenable
position

EN-BI: means flying swallow.
This pattern is performed with swift ascending and
descending movements similar to the flying swallow

RO-HAI: signifies a crane standing on a rock.
Some of the movements of this pattern are performed
with one leg stance which symbolizes a crane standing on
a rock.

KOUH-SHANG-KOUH: is named after a noted Chinese military officer, Mr. Kouh-Shang-Kouh who once visited Japan.

TET-KI: means iron horse.
Most of the movements throughout the patterns are
performed with a riding stance which is similar to horse
riding.

JIT-TE means ten hands.
Anyone who has mastered this pattern may have no
problem against the attack from ten persons.

HAN-GETSU: means half-moon.
Many of the movements of this pattern are carried out in
the form of an arc which symbolizes a half-moon.

JI-ON: the derivation of the name is unknown."

The above is a quote from General Choi's book. As I read through the "Bat-Sai" pattern, I noticed it was almost identical to the "Ba Sai" that is used by the U.S. Chung Do Kwan. There are some major changes, and I don't yet know if it was intentional, or a faded memory of the form. Perhaps I can find out next week. Anyhow, they are certainly of the same origin. "Bat-Sai" and "Ba sai" begin the same way, but the leaping backfist looks altered to an inner forearm block with the fingertip assist. Also, "Yumbee" is definately from "En-Bi" (or Empi). It is not a leaping backfist, but there are several punches followed by a leap to an x-stance with a low punch. The U.S. Chung Do Kwan version of "Yumbee" executes the high punch while leaping in the air, and landing with the low punch in the x-stance. There are other differences, but it is basically the same form.

I'll tell you more later as I find it out.

CM D. J. Eisenhart

 

[IcemanSK]

Thank you, sir.:asian: I plan to attend the session at the Conference that goes over Dalee Hyungs & Yumbi & Bassai (more for the 3 Dalee Hyungs) I plan to test for my 3rd Dan in summer '07: so I've got a lot to work on.

BTW: I've spoken to other non-USCDKA TKD folks who do Bassai as well. One 16 year old kid told me matter-of-factly, "It's part of traditional Tae Kwon Do." I had to laugh.

I look forward to meeting you, sir.:asian:

 

[Last Fearner]

"It's part of traditional Tae Kwon Do." I had to laugh.

I look forward to meeting you, sir.:asian:

That is funny! :lol:

I look forward to meeting you too! I'm glad to hear that you are going.

Just don't tell anyone here at MT what I'm really like! :ultracool lol

See you there!
CM D.J. Eisenhart

 

[IcemanSK]

Just don't tell anyone here at MT what I'm really like! :ultracool lol

I won't if you won't, sir.:ultracool

 

[Last Fearner]

You mean that's not your picture in your Avatar?? Oh no, I thought I'd be able to spot you really easy at the conference!

How am I going to recognize you now? :lol:

 

[IcemanSK]

You mean that's not your picture in your Avatar?? Oh no, I thought I'd be able to spot you really easy at the conference!

How am I going to recognize you now? :lol:

I'll be very easy to spot. I'll be the only one there with 6 braids on their left arm with only 2 stripes on the belt.:boing1: