Turn based sparring

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Talk' started by Azulx, Oct 11, 2017.

  1. Azulx

    Azulx Brown Belt

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    What are drills to do to get out of the habit of turn based sparring?
     
  2. jobo

    jobo Senior Master

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    sparring were you don't take turns,,, ?
     
  3. Azulx

    Azulx Brown Belt

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    Yes, that's the goal. But what are ways to break the habit?
     
  4. jobo

    jobo Senior Master

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    well one has to throw kick or punches or what ever and the other one can do what ever comes to mind as a defence/ attack,
    so party A comes forward to throw his punches and party B can chose to kick him in the thigh, leg sweep him or punch him first.

    this only works if the kick etc has enough sting to hurt, otherwise party A will just keep coming forward,
     
  5. hoshin1600

    hoshin1600 Master Black Belt

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    i have thought a lot about this problem. many people dont even know there is a problem. point sparring and casual light sparring is usually where you see this happening. the gyms that are more MMA based dont really have this issue as much. the issue is created by the mentality and etiquette of the school. if one person is doing this and you are not then you may be perceived as being a jerk. you will not be letting them have their turn. how to break your own habit will have to fall in line with your goals and your dojo environment.
     
  6. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    Ironically you do turn based sparring.

    So you attack with three or four strikes and the other guy counters at some point before that combination ends.

    Then he will go.

    Otherwise ten second rounds will get people trading a bit more. Or even tabata rounds if you wanted to get really tricky.

    You can find tabata timers on YouTube.
     
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  7. marques

    marques 2nd Black Belt

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    If I understood the question, a few solutions may be:

    - 1 attacks and one only defend for the entire round.
    - 1 has the offensive initiative for the entire round, the other can defend and counter.
    - Both attack (and defend) simultaneously (may be fun, and risky).
    - Footwork, so the opponent can't even start his turn.
    - Counters, so the opponent can't go far (no full turn).
    - Combinations of the above.
     
  8. kempodisciple

    kempodisciple Senior Master

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    My solution would be, when you think you want to defend, attack. Eventually, you'll figure out which times your instinct was correct, and which times was you unconsciously trying to do turn based sparring. Be prepared to get hit and looked at funny a lot, or to annoy your sparring partners by being 'too aggressive' (ie not giving them their turn)
     
  9. JR 137

    JR 137 Master of Arts

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    I think you’re referring to the feedback I left on your video thread about the back and forth pattern you were falling into...

    The basic concept is you have to disrupt your opponent’s combo. If you’re constantly stepping backward and blocking, it’s very difficult. Part of it is recognizing the attack coming and throwing a counter before the attack is finished.

    Rather than stepping back, step forward. Either straight in or at an angle. Or hold your ground.

    We do “Seido strategies.” They start out as one steps and progress to multiple techniques coming at you. I can’t really list each one and all the steps here as I don’t have the space to do so, and it would get confusing for both of us, and I don’t know of any videos. But here’s one...

    Both people in a fighting stance
    Attacker throws a back leg right front kick
    As the attacker’s knee is coming up, the defender slides forward at about 45 degrees to the outside of the kick and parries the kick with his right arm
    If you slid correctly, you’re almost shoulder to shoulder, and you’ve got a bit of a lean to your left
    Head punch with your left hand, followed by a right head punch. The left punch will turn your torso to naturally lead to a right punch.

    If you get to the right spot and parry right, the attacker can’t really counter, as you’re in what some call the “blind spot.”

    Look at your one-step sparring drills. I’m assuming you do those. Rather than step back with a block, step forward. See what’s available. Take it slow. Make up your own.

    Have a partner throw a straight right punch while stepping forward. Rather than stepping back, step forward at an angle and push/deflect the punch so their arm goes across their chest. Follow up however you want, but keep it simple. Get those down to where you feel confident, and begin teaching those as you would one steps. Same for kicks - move forward at an angle. Front kicks can be pushed across their body, side kicks can be either pushed straight down or across their body (depending on height of the kick), and roundhouses can be blocked with a block that I don’t know the name of - the kicking side arm is down, slightly bent and a bit away from your ribs while the top hand comes across and over the kicking side shoulder (defending your head). For a roundhouse, slide straight forward or forward at an angle away from the kick.

    Hard to explain on paper, easy to show. The main things are recognizing what’s coming and moving forward instead of backward. If you time it right and move right, the actual hands blocking are barely necessary; they’ll more or less push the strike further away thereby giving you a bigger target.

    All you really need to start making your own one-steps like this is someone to step forward with a punch or kick. Once you get a few that work well, start teaching your students them. See how it goes. It’s an evolution.

    Even though it’s karate and not TKD, look up Joko Ninomiya and Enshin karate. He’s got some instructional stuff on YouTube that explains getting to the blind spot. He calls it Sabaki method.
     
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  10. gpseymour

    gpseymour Grandmaster

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    You can also get Tabata timers for your smartphone. Some are programmable, so you can vary the number of rounds.
     
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  11. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Senior Master

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    Simple. Shorten the sparring time. If your are doing 30 seconds rounds then shorten the rounds to 15 seconds. If you are doing 1 minute rounds then shorten the time to around 03- 40 seconds.

    Shorter rounds mean you have to get busy and you can't waste time trying to size your opponent up for the 30 seconds before attacking.
     
  12. gpseymour

    gpseymour Grandmaster

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    DB’s approach works for me. If I catch myself doing it, I use a count-down or count-up to force a change. So, I might start by allowing my partner 5 attacks, then I respond with 1. Then 4, 1. Then 3, 1. Then 2,1. Then 1,2. Then 1, 3. Then 1,4. Then 1, 5. I rarely get to do all of mine (especially at 5), because I don’t tell my partner what I’m doing - he will interrupt me. Sometimes I don’t even finish the first part, because an opening comes that I can’t pass up - which means I’m no longer taking turns in my head. Somehow, counting them breaks the pattern.
     
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  13. oftheherd1

    oftheherd1 Senior Master

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    I rather like JR 137's advice. It is rather Hapkido like. However, for a front kick we might not move as far as I understand him to mean. No matter, the idea is to get out of the way of/deflect the kick and attack as part of that evasion/deflection. Besides JR 137's suggestion, you might also bend your right arm up and under the attackers right leg, then grabbing their knee and pull vigorously to their right, wrenching their knee. Or, step forward with your right foot and lift up on their leg, pushing/throwing them over backward. That move to catch the leg does require speed, timing, and accuracy, and a lot of practice to get it all right.
     
  14. Bill Mattocks

    Bill Mattocks Sr. Grandmaster

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    I guess someone is going to have to explain what 'turn based sparring' is. Is it taking turns while sparring? Is it using spinning kicks and backfists?

    If the former, I have no idea. We don't take turns when sparring. We spar. You're working your techniques while your opponent works theirs. If you bust up their flow, good. If they bust up yours, think about how to not let that happen, and improvise, overcome, adapt.

    If the latter, just don't do those things.
     
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  15. gpseymour

    gpseymour Grandmaster

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    I think the OP's talking about the former - and doing it not on purpose. So, if you and I are sparring, I get into a habit of attacking once then backing off until you attack, then countering, etc.
     
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  16. Bill Mattocks

    Bill Mattocks Sr. Grandmaster

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    Got it, thanks. I don't know how to address that; being quite honest, I've never seen it in our dojo. We do one-step and three-step and so on self-defense techniques, but those are not sparring. Sparring, we just spar.
     
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  17. JR 137

    JR 137 Master of Arts

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    It’s not exactly shoulder to shoulder; more like pec to shoulder :)

    Actually, there’s really no easy way to describe it. Slide in and stay close - close to him from the side, and close from the front. I’d say about an elbow’s distance away (bend elbow, parallel to the floor, about half way between your center and your side). Then again, that’s probably more confusing :)
     
  18. Tony Dismukes

    Tony Dismukes Senior Master

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    I think Gerry has it. If you look at the OP's earlier threads where he has posted video of himself sparring you see the pattern. It's pretty common at schools where students spar light contact at long range in an open area. Student A throws a simple attack or combo from far away and student B moves back to avoid it. Then student A stops attacking, possibly because he feels overextended or doesn't want to chase B all the way across the room or out of the designated sparring area.. Then B attacks and A retreats and the cycle repeats.

    One thing that helps is to work from closer range. If you have a ring or cage or a safe wall to mark the edge of the sparring space then you can work on backing your opponent up into a corner and pressing the attack. Work on combination, on counters, on getting superior angles, and on stifling your opponent's attacks. Another possibility is to slow things down and lighten up the contact. When sparring partners are afraid to get hit, they have a tendency to back out of range and take turns playing tippy-tappy from long distance. If you lighten things up enough that you can relax about the possibility of being hit, you may find it easier to keep a continuous flow of action.
     
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  19. kempodisciple

    kempodisciple Senior Master

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    I love how many different solutions people have based on the exact same problem. And basically all of them sound to me like they have a good chance of working.
     
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  20. oftheherd1

    oftheherd1 Senior Master

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    I understand what you are saying, so I think you are more trying to help the OP to understand. I .think another problem having someone to help point out any problems with technique. Grappling can have some nuances that are hard to grasp (didn't intend the pun) without help
     
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