Trapping discussion

[arnisador]

I take JKD and think of it as that trapping is one route to clinching--not a preferred route, just the one you might take in certain cases. This is a PFS school (i.e., Paul Vunak's organization) where getting control of the head and launhcing a HKE elbow attack is a preferred roue, and so it may reflect his approach more than anything else...or my limited understanding.

But, to me trapping is obstruction removal (as we say in Modern Arnis), whereas clinching is control, or a battle for same.

 

[Nanalo74]

Has anyone read the "Realities of Street Violence" thread in the General Self Defense section? Some great video of actual street encounters. Street violence is brutal and unpredictable, and rarely resembles the classroom setting. We try to approximate as best we can, but the fact is until you've got some maniac trying to take your life, you really don't know how you will react.

When I played football, we practiced all week for the big game. But it wasn't until you lined up across from that 280 lb. lineman and had him try to knock you on your tail did you know what it was like to play the game. Some guys looked great on the practice field, but folded up like a chair when it was time to perform.

Scientists test and test new medications all the time, but until they test it in an actual human being they really don't know what it will do in the hostile environment that is the human body. How many drugs have to be recalled due to unforseen reactions once a patient takes them?

All of our preparation is theoretical until we are forced to survive an actual life and death situation.

Just my 2 cents.

Vic www.combatartsusa.com

 

[achilles]

I think an important phase in using trapping, as well as any other skill against a resisting opponent, is the practice of said skill in an environment where the cue to use it is fairly random (yet recuring to get enough repetitions to sufficiently establish the skill in your mind/body). I have designed a set of drills that work trapping off a random parry/block and I think they have a lot to offer as far as translating technique and theory into actual practice. Split second awareness and adaptability are key IMHO.

 

[James Kovacich]

Welcome Vic, I know you and Barry probably have a ton of info to share and we look forward to it.

And you're right but I think a lot of confusion comes from the distintion between intercepting and trapping. People think trapping is too hard because they are thinking "intercepting" which are related but not one in the same. Intercepting is not easy. It happens but not if one looks for it. it just happens.

Trapping is used all the time in various ways. I really don't think that a good example is one of the correctional facility. Way to many variables. Probably more times than not the cops (with weapons ans more cops with weapons nearby) out number the inmate when in the process of subdueing. Not a good example. Or wittnessing stab victims. The actual fighters, stabber and stabbee, might work.

Trapping works if one knows it. 1 tool in the tool box, used when needed. It does not need to be "validtated" as a qualifying technique if the qualification process means if we haven't used it yet, then we must find a way to use it.

Then we'd be just brawlers and not martial artists.

 

[Nanalo74]

Thank you, Akja, for the welcome. I enjoy reading everyone's views on all these topics. I just hope everyone takes each other's views in the proper spirit, which should be one of honest debate and friendly dialogue.

I think that too often when people hear the word "trapping", they get visions of lop sao drills dancing in their heads. Trapping is a range. When a person is trapped, they are immobilized. They can't move, and are at your mercy for the follow-up.

Trapping Range is a transient state. We're not gonna stay there going trap for trap with someone (no matter how cool it looks in the movies). We're only there long enough to finish the fight or to move into grappling range (and finish the fight).

It's not something you look for. It's something that happens; incidental if not accidental.

Vic www.combatartsusa.com

 

[James Kovacich]

Thank you, Akja, for the welcome. I enjoy reading everyone's views on all these topics. I just hope everyone takes each other's views in the proper spirit, which should be one of honest debate and friendly dialogue.

I think that too often when people hear the word "trapping", they get visions of lop sao drills dancing in their heads. Trapping is a range. When a person is trapped, they are immobilized. They can't move, and are at your mercy for the follow-up.

Trapping Range is a transient state. We're not gonna stay there going trap for trap with someone (no matter how cool it looks in the movies). We're only there long enough to finish the fight or to move into grappling range (and finish the fight).

It's not something you look for. It's something that happens; incidental if not accidental.

Vic www.combatartsusa.com

I agree. Theres a big differance between drilling and knowing. I'm big on ranges. Trapping comes and go's. I teach the drills because thats where the sensitivity comes from but at the same time I teach the submissions that are there at that very moment also. Plan A is always followed by plan B,C,D & E.

 

[James Kovacich]

I take JKD and think of it as that trapping is one route to clinching--not a preferred route,

I see it like that too but that is also where I want to be, the range of destruction.

Yes trap and clinch are differant but related. Wasn't it Remy that said something like if you can make the connection, you can make the translation? I know you know what I mean. How does that saying go? It's a good one.

 

[arnisador]

Well, Remy Presas was big on going with the flow, and connecting arts as well as making connections from one state in combat to another--basically the moving between ranges idea. (I'm not sure of the specific quote!) He also emphasized countering the counter, which is a big part of the idea of lop sao/pak sao to my mind. In Modern Arnis it was called obstruction removal but it's the same thing.

But, I also agree with what was said about not focusing so much on lop sao/pak sao.

 

[Sifu Barry Cuda]

Hey guys,Im back and I truly hope I dont make everybodys blood boil.Im just trying to share 20 years of teaching and combat experience.On the subject of trapping, more precicely compound trapping which is practiced so diligently,it will NEVER happen.One thing I learned from Vunak in the 80s is even people who are trained will not give you the rear hand when you Pak and hit.As long as Ive been teaching when I teach trapping,Ill Pak the lead hand and throw a shot.After the student gets hit in the head Ill say block this shot with the rear hand.It still takes about half a dozen times to get used to blocking the rear shot.It is Not a normal reaction.When the majority of people get Pak Soa ed hard they always flinch on the shot.I admit I never had a streetfight with a Wing Chun Man but I believe they are the only ones that will react to it.Intence center line training is what gives the reaction to block when your front hand is trapped.Thats why Vunak, Paks, hits and then blasts without a second trap.To now contradict myself I, teach JKD trapping Kali Trapping and the Wing Chun I learned privatley from Randy Williams in its entirety because it is important to have the sensitivity and know all the possible lines and counters.Also learn the art for the arts sake.I reaize a lot of people took my previous comments the wrong way and I apologise, but real life combat is a scary thing and one should be prepared for it.BTW in a correctional setting the officer is ALWAYS outnumbered by the inmates.Overcrowding and buget cuts make it a very dangerous job,and where I worked we were allowed NO weapons on our person,just cuffs. Barry www.combatartsusa.como

 

[James Kovacich]

Well, Remy Presas was big on going with the flow, and connecting arts as well as making connections from one state in combat to another--basically the moving between ranges idea. (I'm not sure of the specific quote!) He also emphasized countering the counter, which is a big part of the idea of lop sao/pak sao to my mind. In Modern Arnis it was called obstruction removal but it's the same thing.

But, I also agree with what was said about not focusing so much on lop sao/pak sao.

I train very similar. I know people probably have doubts (theres only 1 way to find out) but all of technique flows together. Anything can be used in conjunction with any other technique at any time.

Thats Gung Fu. JKD the art (or concept,art) with little Gung Fu stills does the same thing. I just have a focus more in the trapping range where I'm at home. :asian:

 

[James Kovacich]

Hey guys,Im back and I truly hope I dont make everybodys blood boil.Im just trying to share 20 years of teaching and combat experience.On the subject of trapping, more precicely compound trapping which is practiced so diligently,it will NEVER happen.One thing I learned from Vunak in the 80s is even people who are trained will not give you the rear hand when you Pak and hit.As long as Ive been teaching when I teach trapping,Ill Pak the lead hand and throw a shot.After the student gets hit in the head Ill say block this shot with the rear hand.It still takes about half a dozen times to get used to blocking the rear shot.It is Not a normal reaction.When the majority of people get Pak Soa ed hard they always flinch on the shot.I admit I never had a streetfight with a Wing Chun Man but I believe they are the only ones that will react to it.Intence center line training is what gives the reaction to block when your front hand is trapped.Thats why Vunak, Paks, hits and then blasts without a second trap.To now contradict myself I, teach JKD trapping Kali Trapping and the Wing Chun I learned privatley from Randy Williams in its entirety because it is important to have the sensitivity and know all the possible lines and counters.Also learn the art for the arts sake.I reaize a lot of people took my previous comments the wrong way and I apologise, but real life combat is a scary thing and one should be prepared for it.BTW in a correctional setting the officer is ALWAYS outnumbered by the inmates.Overcrowding and buget cuts make it a very dangerous job,and where I worked we were allowed NO weapons on our person,just cuffs. Barry www.combatartsusa.como

Are you saying that you don't practice against a jab and a cross? Thats the one thing that I do focus heavy. My students need to know how a streefighter, boxer, kickboxer, Karate, Ju Jitsu and Gung Fu "type" will come at them. I tell them that I'm teaching them to beat all the systems that I've trained. Obviuosly that is a bold statement, but definately a positive step forward, compared to most systems being confined to "their" system.

 

[Nanalo74]

Are you saying that you don't practice against a jab and a cross? Thats the one thing that I do focus heavy. My students need to know how a streefighter, boxer, kickboxer, Karate, Ju Jitsu and Gung Fu "type" will come at them. I tell them that I'm teaching them to beat all the systems that I've trained. Obviuosly that is a bold statement, but definately a positive step forward, compared to most systems being confined to "their" system.

I know this question was directed to Barry, but I'll answer it since I'm his student. We do practice the jab-cross, and defend against it. The point he was making is that in real life when you pak in on someone, they never get that rear hand up to block the shot. Again, he cited the fact that he's never had to fight someone trained in Wing Chun. For that matter, neither have I so they may be the exception. As I said before, actual streetfights are a lot different from the classroom. We train for all contingencies of course, but we have to remember that our training is developing attributes that we'll need later. Drills are just that - drills.

Vic www.combatartsusa.com

 

[James Kovacich]

I know this question was directed to Barry, but I'll answer it since I'm his student. We do practice the jab-cross, and defend against it. The point he was making is that in real life when you pak in on someone, they never get that rear hand up to block the shot. Again, he cited the fact that he's never had to fight someone trained in Wing Chun. For that matter, neither have I so they may be the exception. As I said before, actual streetfights are a lot different from the classroom. We train for all contingencies of course, but we have to remember that our training is developing attributes that we'll need later. Drills are just that - drills.

Vic www.combatartsusa.com

That was the answer I was expecting. If a strike gets that close that you "need" the rear hand, you can't miss or you will be likely be hit.

 

[Nanalo74]

Agreed.

 

[brothershaw]

From my perspective (I am not an expert or meaning to offend)

You take trapping ( actually traps, openings, and chi sau in general) seperate it from its original format (wing chun) and put pieces of it in JKD and misunderstand.

Some of the things done in wing chun are done as learning tools, and also because the person you may be doing them to also knows what you know adn may try it on you.
It doesnt mean that someone throws a punch and then you try to trap and next thing its a chi sau match regardless of how they fight

I am leaving out big chunks but I believe alot of the point is being missed. I am actually agreeing with Cuda, and trying to take his explanation a step or 2 further, just botching the post.

Some of the things in chi sau/ trapping/ wing chun
1-for sensitivity, skill development
2-for a fighter type similiar to you (wing chun,maybe some other southern close range style)
3-for anybody else (intermediate range fighter (bigger movements)
for someone who doesnt know the system but watches/ copies the training
they cant tell the difference between the 3 or when to use what techniques they take

You can say this for any style if you take a segment out of context

 

[Flatlander]

Hi brothershaw. I understand that you are not meaning to offend, however, when you make a statement such as: "You take trapping ( actually traps, openings, and chi sau in general) seperate it from its original format (wing chun) and put pieces of it in JKD and misunderstand", without qualifying it with where you see a misunderstanding, it will be assumed that you are referring to everyone's posts on the topic so far.

So, where do you see that someone is misunderstanding?

It doesnt mean that someone throws a punch and then you try to trap and next thing its a chi sau match regardless of how they fight

I don't see where anyone has implied that this is the case at all.

 

[James Kovacich]

I think that brothershaw is offering his interpetation. He has a Wing Chun background and knows what he is trying to say.

But when "we" cross over into the JKD realm "one" needs to understand that everything is open to interpetation. What works for "me" might not work for "you" and for anyone to think that something has to be done in a certain way violates what JKD represents.

 

[brothershaw]

Exactly....
Taking anything and applying it to JKD Using JKD principles not all of it is going to fit, not the way you might think it should according to JKD principles.

Flatlander- Someone punches, you pak sao and punch back, he punches with his rear hand you do what
a- counter his rear hand with your hand that was punching him, wind up squared off and have the start of a chi sau match
b-pass his rear hand thatcomes at you, step and angle and are now on his other blind side still have advantage to a degree and finish him off?
c- ignore the rear hand because you have hit him repeatedly,moved to clinch range already and are finishing him off?
d- he actually counters your pak sao and punch, friendly chi sau match again or does he finish you off ?

You pak his punch, he punches with his rear hand in response/reaction
a- your pak wasnt good
b-he had alot of forward momentum somehow (feet, waists, hips?)
c- he knows pak sao / wing chun/ jkd?

I know the earlier post was sounding kind of wrong but I was in a rush.
You have to play with the traps, for me there is like 20 other things that are interconnected that I am concerned about in addition to not getting hit so I can start hitting and keep hitting.

Criticism is welcome.

 

[Flatlander]

Brothershaw, all I can honestly say is that I don't go into it with a mindset of "do this or do that". If a trap is there, I may trap, I may not. I don't think I can predict what happens under any circumstance. I train to trap because it may come in handy. In your scenario, I'm entering on his first punch. I'm doing some lin sil die dar, maybe I'm destroying. I can't really say from here.

I see what you're saying, though. The truth is, there are no short term solutions; there are no magic moves. You just need to train the fundamentals and trust your body to respond when the time is right.

 

[Sifu Barry Cuda]

Guys, first off my comments about trapping in class and in the street seem to be a little misunderstood.Against a person that is not trained extensivley in trapping will not block the shot.Been there done that. Lets say faceing off against someone the first thing I do is blast the shin with a low kick.As soon as my foot lands I Pak his front hand HARD and throw my shot.I f he is not trained in trapping he will not react to that shot and throw up a rear barrier.The way I teach a Pak sao it has to hurt and if you dont train your forearms it will hurt.A basic combo in JKD is to Pak the front hand,throw a backfist and then throw a cross.Chi Sao and Hubud are trained to deal with a clash in trapping range-how to move your opponents hands around to give you a more favorable position.The problem is some people think after all the back and forth drills we do is that an opponent will go counter to counter with you.One of the things I train my advanced guys is for them to trap on me and I counter with the sloppy wild things most streetfighters do.I play the part of the boxer or grappler and show how to deal with that.Then one can see how the concepts and techniques of trapping are used 'for real" Barry www.combatartsusa.com