Trapping discussion

[Flatlander]

Inspired by another thread, I would like to commence a discussin devoted completely to trapping. The question raised was "can clinching be considered a form of trapping?"

I feel that in order to discuss the benfits and drawbacks of trapping, it would be useful to explore what is and what is not considered to be trapping.

In the context of my limited training thus far, I would define trapping, as I know it, to be the immobilization or removal of an obstruction or potential barrier to clear a path for a strike. In that context, I would have to say that, no, clinching is not a form of trapping if the requirement of following the trap with a strike is a necessary component of that definition. However, I have assumed here that the clinch was initiated as a means to control the other body's movement, or otherwise contain it's potential to strike back as a primary objective, as opposed to clearing out a strike line.

Thoughts or comments? How do you define trapping? Are there classical and nonclassical trapping methods? If so, do you find one to be more effective than the other?

 

[pesilat]

Inspired by another thread, I would like to commence a discussin devoted completely to trapping. The question raised was "can clinching be considered a form of trapping?"

I feel that in order to discuss the benfits and drawbacks of trapping, it would be useful to explore what is and what is not considered to be trapping.

In the context of my limited training thus far, I would define trapping, as I know it, to be the immobilization or removal of an obstruction or potential barrier to clear a path for a strike. In that context, I would have to say that, no, clinching is not a form of trapping if the requirement of following the trap with a strike is a necessary component of that definition. However, I have assumed here that the clinch was initiated as a means to control the other body's movement, or otherwise contain it's potential to strike back as a primary objective, as opposed to clearing out a strike line.

Thoughts or comments? How do you define trapping? Are there classical and nonclassical trapping methods? If so, do you find one to be more effective than the other?

For me trapping is obstacle removal. Taking something temporarily out of the game so that I can accomplish a goal. I would put clinching into the trapping category because it can be used to disrupt the opponent's balance - and their balance can be an obstacle for me. My attack that the trap helps me land might be a strike but it might also be a takedown, joint lock, disarm, etc.

I think there is classical and non-classical trapping. Classical trapping is how the trapping is trained - whether it's working pak sao from a static position or working from a more dynamic platform like Chi Sao or Filipino Higot Hubud Lubud.

Non-classical trapping would be taking the principles from the classical trapping and applying them. So it might be that I pin a guy's arms to his sides and headbutt him in the nose. I would say that this is definitely a trap but not a "classical" trap. Another would be while I'm on the ground, I pin the guy's arm to the floor with my knee.

Classical trapping doesn't happen often in a real fight. Non-classical trapping, IMO, happens a lot - it has in every fight I've been in or seen, anyway.

Mike

 

[Sifu Barry Cuda]

Hello everybody. Now heres my two cents: trapping is a range, not a set of techniques.Trapping range is when you are close enought to knee ,headbut ,elbow,bite,ect.Most people think trapping means Pak Soa Lop soa, but NO! A range.I dont want to get caught up in semantics but a wrist lock can be considered a trap: a hand imobilization.The clinch can be considered trapping as far as I express JKD/Kali.There is a very fine line between trapping range and grappling.I can clinch with you in Hubud, stick to stick and if you asked me is this trapping or grappling I would say yes.The clinch could be considered a body immobilization.Did you find a submission there or are you headbutting and kneeing in the clinch? As far as my expertise goes there is no definate answer, it becomes very subjective. Barry www.combatartsusa.com

 

[JKogas]

Ultimately its going to come down to -- opinions (as always).

Trapping is a range to be sure, but if you're in that range and you're not "trapping", what then?? (Of course, you'd better be doing something because that range isn't too kind to people standing around chit-chatting).

Semantics, all of it really. I consider the clinch to be face to face whether with an "attachment" or not. Thats about where the "trapping" range occurs. We could just end up splitting hairs here. That's not a good thing.

When you clinch, you immobilize and remove an obstruction. That's the essense of what trapping is about. Who cares if you're "here, or there"? Are we really going to get our micrometers out and start disecting the distances, lol? In real fight - as fast and frenetic as they are - I doubt anyone's going to care if I'm at arms length or where the hell ever, truthfully.

Personally, I find the classical trapping range to be a bit dangerous, particularly against a skilled opponent. That's the distance we call the range of exchanges. The FUR FLIES in that range and, it's not the greatest distance to be reaching away from the body and exposing yourself, trying to "trap" a limb. But hey, that's just the side of me speaking that doesn't like to get knocked out. What do I really know.....


Cheers!

-John

 

[brothershaw]

I think of chi sai and hubud/lubud as sensitivity,+ reaction training to get close enough to do close range damage .I think of trapping as a brief momentary thing if that, to get to find an opening and attack the person. Generally speaking I dont think or care too much about trapping/pinning because its not that that important to ME as being able to strike as much and as often as I want. ( if that makes sense to you)
To me clinching is closer ( I have a some kind of body control and I am elbow and kneeing).

Or more clearly getting to the inside and working my way to "clinch" and finish.

from my viewpoint chisau is more about getting around the oppenent and being able to strike ,trap or no trap.

 

[James Kovacich]

Trapping is a range and an "un-defined" set of techniques. Interception, immobilization and limb destruction are a few of "attached" reactions to trapping. It's a good intermediate setup range to flow from art to art or range to range.

The clinch and trapping are related at least in a sense. I think if one works trapping they should work the clinch too.

 

[JKogas]

Just curious as to all of your opinions. How many "ranges" are there that exist? Because depending on whom you are speaking with, there can be as few as two and as many as 5 (or more).

-John

 

[achilles]

It is all a matter of semantics. As a range, you could further argue where trapping range ends and grappling begins. As a set of tools, well, everything from pak sao to the mount are part of JKD's Immobilization Attack. Really though, when the efficacy of trapping is discussed, accusations are aimed at tools and tactics from wing chun and kali primarily and the rebuttal's are apologetic, trying to comprimise with a more abstract semantic argument. I've used trapping in sparring. I have students who have used trapping in sparring. I've sparred with competitive kickboxers and boxers, so I'm not a fool when it comes to practicing under pressure. Having said that, I think that trapping is frequently either over-rated or under-rated. My perception of the matter is that it, like any other tool, has a limited value and a limited window of opportunity. I use trapping when my hands run into other hands. When I was training more boxing at PAL gym, people didn't block that much. A few guys could slip, but most would simply eat a punch and try to hit you with something harder. Whether trapping is a good idea is ultimately based on what type of structure you are up against.

 

[Sifu Barry Cuda]

Hey everybody,I love a good trapping discusion.As to ranges there are basically long range which is kicking range altho I can kick in mid and close.kickboxing range where I can punch and kick but not elbow or knee, trapping range where I can immobilize a limb,kick{low] headbut, knee, elbow,forearm strike,ect, and grappling range[standing or on the ground] BUT all ranges intersect and none is an island unto itself.As to classical vs unclassical trapping, I have no idea what that means.Chi Sao in Wing Chun is classical and very effective.Hubud in Kali is also classical and in my opinion more effective since it is done with every combination of weapon and empty hand possible.The technology of Kali is very advanced and it is classical in the sense that is is an ancient system and it is still practiced the way it has always been without any modification.As to nonclassical anything, keep in mind martial arts have been around longer than most of us on this board, so whatever anybody thinks is a "modification" has probably been done before.So in the words of my instructor Dan Inosanto, you can never invent your own techniques, only discover what you did not see before. Barry www.combatartsusa.com y

 

[achilles]

Wow, you're up late too!

I agree, there is nothing new under the sun. When I was twelve or thirteen I though I invented puter kapala from Silat. Who knew?

Range is a good teaching tool, but you're totally right about overlap and intersection. I think that the more abstract temporal spacial relationship is a better model, but range and rhythm are easier to understand. I also think that the distinction between classical and non-classical as well as traditional and ecclectic are illconceived. All arts are ecclectic at least at some time in their development when the founder was laying out his curriculum. He took from here and there, either from external sources or his own experience (often a combination of both) and put together a model he thought explained combat. If it stuck around long enough it became classical, but for its time it might have been revolutionary.

 

[Sifu Barry Cuda]

Achilles,The only time I can actually hang out online undesturbed is late night.In the beginning you had people that used martial arts to stay alive, PERIOD. It was not a vocation or a hobby but to stay alive.As far as the Kali I do as taught by Dan Inosanto,there was no curriculum when he was learning.People like Angel Cabales and Floro Villabrail had no teaching system.Their respective students put things together as far as progression.In the 60s if you trained with a Filipino master it was"come at me like this, I do this" There was no talk of ranges and scientific theories.These were full contact death match survivors.Years later people that have no idea of life or death combat talk about theories and techniques.My former teacher Paul Vunak would call these people armchair generals.There are a lot of the JKD/Kali trapping curiculum I dont teach because they wont happen but are taugh for reasons other than combat like body mechanics and so on.I hate to say it but there are things you can only truly understand by living a violent life.Not in the PAL, not in ANY ring situation, and not in any martial art school.Either in prison or in the street is were you learn to apply your training.The masters of old were veterans of combat not Martial art school trained experts.Barry www.combatartsusa.com sanp

 

[achilles]

Barry,

I am an instructor under Dan Inosanto. I know what his curricula are like and I have a good understanding of the sources from which they came.

 

[James Kovacich]

Years later people that have no idea of life or death combat talk about theories and techniques.My former teacher Paul Vunak would call these people armchair generals.www.combatartsusa.com sanp

So do you see the vast majority of us as armchair generals?

 

[Feisty Mouse]

So do you see the vast majority of us as armchair generals?

I'm curious about that as well. I would think that most of my instructors have been fortunate enough to not have to personally have been in "life-or-death" combat to know what works, or to be able to train effectively. At what point is someone an armchair general? Are we all (except for those like LEOs and others who have had to get into an awful situation)?

 

[JKogas]

As for what Vunak thinks...well, as Mom always told me, if you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all.


-John

 

[Sifu Barry Cuda]

Whoa guys, i didnt mean to offend half the world here.In my defense I wiil say that as an Instructor and martial artist I come from a certain mindset.I have seen fellow officers get beaten half to death and I have seen a person with aprox 20 stab wounds refuse to be strapped to a gurney by 6 cops.I PERSONALY have seen such ultra violence in my life that I know it takes a lot more than training in someones school to deal with some of the possible things life can through your way. Lets say your walking down the street and coming the other way is a 35 year old male that was sexually abused as a child,beaten regularly by his stepfather,and just got out of prison serving 9 out of a 20 year bid for killing someone with a knife in a bar.In prison this person killed three people with his hands.This person understands pain and he understands combat.He also doesnt care if he lives or dies. I train to beat that guy.Surviving a life or death fight with that individual will depend on your understanding of violence, not your training.Im not putting anybody down on this board Im here to make friends not cause controversy, but Ive seen things and been caught up in the middle of things that only a certain "attitude" can get you out of.The ability to get as primal and as violent as the maniac trying to kill you.Barry www.combatartsusa.com

 

[JKogas]

Whoa guys, i didnt mean to offend half the world here.In my defense I wiil say that as an Instructor and martial artist I come from a certain mindset.I have seen fellow officers get beaten half to death and I have seen a person with aprox 20 stab wounds refuse to be strapped to a gurney by 6 cops.I PERSONALY have seen such ultra violence in my life that I know it takes a lot more than training in someones school to deal with some of the possible things life can through your way.

But it DOES take training. It simply takes functional training. Beyond that is life and luck, just as with everything else. Just because the “masters” of old had to deal with violence, doesn’t make their students anymore capable of dealing with it themselves. So in a very real sense, we’re ALL pretty much having to train and then take our chances with it all in a roll of the dice when and IF the time comes. And I’ll take those chances. What are the alternatives?



Sure, it goes WAY beyond technique. It goes into the spirit and mindset of the practitioner. Each individual has to develop that. That comes from experience and to an extent, is already either there or not within the individual. It’s “heart”. Some people have more of it than others.

Lets say your walking down the street and coming the other way is a 35 year old male that was sexually abused as a child,beaten regularly by his stepfather,and just got out of prison serving 9 out of a 20 year bid for killing someone with a knife in a bar.In prison this person killed three people with his hands.This person understands pain and he understands combat.

He understands it from an emotional level. He may or may not understand it from a technical level. I agree that both are important. But whats the point here? You train to beat emotional guys, or technical machines who are capable of taking you apart in a very calm manner?



Which is more dangerous? I would think both, wouldn’t you?

He also doesnt care if he lives or dies. I train to beat that guy.

And again, that’s still simply emotion. A guy may or may not care if he lives or dies – but that still doesn’t necessarily make him a competent fighter. He may still get easily knocked out. He may still expose his back, etc., etc. Emotion is one thing, and it’s a factor. But emotional guys do stupid things as well and tend to make mistakes. Any seasoned fighter would school someone like that. Any seasoned fighter would also do well to learn to deal with that kind of unbridled emotion – which I think is your point. I would agree in that case. And perhaps it’s just me, but ANY sort of alive training develops one’s ability to deal with that very pressure – if one has pressure tested him/herself. And if a person HASN’T pressure tested himself against full on resistance (and not from a guy in a bulletman suit either), then they really haven’t taken themselves to that next level.

Surviving a life or death fight with that individual will depend on your understanding of violence, not your training.

I don’t necessarily agree. That’s because one’s training should be taken to a level high enough for the adrenaline to become a factor. One’s in the water, it’s just the same swimming that you’re always doing and have always done. It’s the PRE fight that is going to nail someone, IMO.

Im not putting anybody down on this board Im here to make friends not cause controversy, but Ive seen things and been caught up in the middle of things that only a certain "attitude" can get you out of.The ability to get as primal and as violent as the maniac trying to kill you.Barry www.combatartsusa.com

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It’s all good man. I appreciate your input. I think we’re all probably very close to the same general notions philosophically. It’s the words that get in the way of most of our communication.





-John

 

[Flatlander]

I PERSONALY have seen such ultra violence in my life that I know it takes a lot more than training in someones school to deal with some of the possible things life can through your way.

Well, Mr. Cuda, if you don't believe you have anything to add specifically to the trapping discussion, your involvement is not mandatory. If you care to discuss your experiences otherwise, please start a new thread to deal with the topic.

 

[Feisty Mouse]

Whoa guys, i didnt mean to offend half the world here.In my defense I wiil say that as an Instructor and martial artist I come from a certain mindset.I have seen fellow officers get beaten half to death and I have seen a person with aprox 20 stab wounds refuse to be strapped to a gurney by 6 cops.I PERSONALY have seen such ultra violence in my life that I know it takes a lot more than training in someones school to deal with some of the possible things life can through your way. Lets say your walking down the street and coming the other way is a 35 year old male that was sexually abused as a child,beaten regularly by his stepfather,and just got out of prison serving 9 out of a 20 year bid for killing someone with a knife in a bar.In prison this person killed three people with his hands.This person understands pain and he understands combat.He also doesnt care if he lives or dies. I train to beat that guy.Surviving a life or death fight with that individual will depend on your understanding of violence, not your training.Im not putting anybody down on this board Im here to make friends not cause controversy, but Ive seen things and been caught up in the middle of things that only a certain "attitude" can get you out of.The ability to get as primal and as violent as the maniac trying to kill you.Barry www.combatartsusa.com

I believe you are talking about a *different kind* of training, a kind of psychological readiness and, perhaps, necessary cynicism of others, for your profession.

Most people walking into training won't necessarily be there for the same reasons - I think that's what I was referring to. Is training trapping drills, or learning to use trapping in sparring, useful? I think so. I was questioning what you posted previously because it sounded as if this psychological training is the most paramount, for everyone.

 

[James Kovacich]

Whoa guys, i didnt mean to offend half the world here.In my defense I wiil say that as an Instructor and martial artist I come from a certain mindset.I have seen fellow officers get beaten half to death and I have seen a person with aprox 20 stab wounds refuse to be strapped to a gurney by 6 cops.I PERSONALY have seen such ultra violence in my life that I know it takes a lot more than training in someones school to deal with some of the possible things life can through your way. Lets say your walking down the street and coming the other way is a 35 year old male that was sexually abused as a child,beaten regularly by his stepfather,and just got out of prison serving 9 out of a 20 year bid for killing someone with a knife in a bar.In prison this person killed three people with his hands.This person understands pain and he understands combat.He also doesnt care if he lives or dies. I train to beat that guy.Surviving a life or death fight with that individual will depend on your understanding of violence, not your training.Im not putting anybody down on this board Im here to make friends not cause controversy, but Ive seen things and been caught up in the middle of things that only a certain "attitude" can get you out of.The ability to get as primal and as violent as the maniac trying to kill you.Barry www.combatartsusa.com

SBC,
No offense taken except if most are armchair generals then I'm a mere captain, but still a soldier, with my cup half empty.

I think that many have seen what you've seen or similar, maybe not as extreme, maybe more. I think the more you hang around here you'll find that theres a lot of experience floating in here.