Transgender man carries baby for his wife

Discussion in 'The Study' started by Ceicei, Mar 27, 2008.

  1. Ceicei

    Ceicei Grandmaster

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    Unusual story. I am not sure how I really think and feel about this. It is easier for me to look at it logically...

    There is the concern that the hormones a person must continue taking to maintain their "male" appearance may be harmful to the unborn child. I wonder how much situations like this will effect society, if at all?

    http://abcnews.go.com/Health/story?id=4528852&page=1

    - Ceicei
     
  2. tellner

    tellner Senior Master

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    I'm a bit worried about the pre-natal hormones.

    I'm more worried about a mother - and yes, that's what she is in this case - who is unwilling to forgo the extra dose of testosterone for a few months. Turning your unborn child into an uncontrolled medical experiment in order to maintain a cosmetic statement for thirty weeks is very irresponsible.

    This just reminds me way too much of my least favorite Samuel Delany book Triton.
     
  3. Big Don

    Big Don Sr. Grandmaster

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    That isn't a man. If someone decided they were actually a bulldog, that would be insane, yet, somehow this isn't...
     
  4. Ceicei

    Ceicei Grandmaster

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    Yet he is "legally" recognized as male? I don't see how I could define "him" as a male. If a person keeps female reproductive system but presents as a male, I still consider that person essentially a female. If she wants to call herself "male" and give herself a male name and change her appearance, that's fine with me. She can be whoever she/he wants.

    What constitutes gender? Is it the reproductive system, the role a person internally feels like, how a person looks like, or just simply a change of semantics?

    - Ceicei
     
  5. Big Don

    Big Don Sr. Grandmaster

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    Gender is a binary condition, rather than a 1 and a 0 we have XX and XY. Science cannot change that. Indulging people's mental problems is harmful and wrong.
    She can call herself a friggin Clydesdale, but that doesn't make it so.
     
  6. Big Don

    Big Don Sr. Grandmaster

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    How many legs has a dog if you call the tail a leg?
    FOUR, calling the tail a leg doesn't make it so.
     
  7. tahuti

    tahuti Orange Belt

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    0.018% of population do not match your binary classification (if wiki is correct), check intersex arcticle.

    Quote from wiki:
    A medical definition of intersexuality which is applied to human beings is "conditions in which chromosomal sex is inconsistent with phenotypic sex, or in which the phenotype is not classifiable as either male or female".
     
  8. RandomPhantom700

    RandomPhantom700 Master of Arts

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    Less than a quarter of 1% doesn't really prove that much. At best, it shows that rare cases of a sex chromosome not splitting completely does happen.

    However, I think we'd best leave whether transgenders have mental problems to psychologists to determine.
     
  9. Empty Hands

    Empty Hands Senior Master

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    Science can however document chromosome combinations like X, XXY, XYY, XYYY, etc. It can also document conditions like Testicular Insensitivity Syndrome in which a genetic male (XY) presents as a nearly complete phenotypic female due to a mutation in the androgen receptor. Gender is far more fluid than you are willing to accept.

    Leave it to you to take a flying leap at ignorance without checking anything else out first. I'd wish an intersex offspring on you to teach you some humility, but I couldn't be that cruel to an innocent child.
     
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  10. Live True

    Live True Brown Belt

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    I could argue the sexual gray areas, but emptyhands has already done a fine job of that.

    While I realize that deviation from the norm makes many folks uncomfortable, my only real question would be how the person treats others and interacts in the world. The rest, quite honestly, is thier personal business. Being around folks who are racially mixed or retarded makes some folks uncomfortable, but that doesn't make the mixed or retarded person wrong or deluded for being what they are. Most folks who are horrified by gays or transgenders assume this person has a choice. I'm not convinced that is the case. Besides, difference is a natural part of the biological continuum. A lack of diversity actually harms an ecosystem...but I digress.....

    I agree with Tellner, my largest concern would be that he (and my understanding is that most transgenders prefer to be addressed by the sexual form they present) is not willing to stop taking the testosterone supplements for the duration of the pregnancy. Being pregnant myself, right now, there is just a WHOLE lot of craziness going on without adding any additional hormone cocktails to the mix (no pun intended). I find this a major concern because it affects more than just the transgender man; it affects his unborn child.

    Otherwise, its' unusual, but it's also a pretty strong sacrifice and struggle for both parents to make. I'm sure it was not an easy decision.
     
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  11. Ceicei

    Ceicei Grandmaster

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    Live True,

    Very well said. For the sake of the unborn baby, I hope things will go well with the pregnancy and the birth.

    - Ceicei
     
  12. BrandiJo

    BrandiJo Master of Arts

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    I am far more concerned with the child then any issues this person may or may not have. Just as a woman is recommended getting OFF birthcontrol (fake hormones) once she is pregnant i do not see why fake male hormones would be any different. This sounds like the first case, so medically it is gray ground as well.

    As for all of you who think Male is male and female is female, i hope you never have a child who is remotely different then you are, for you seem far to stuck on this being a disorder and them needing psychological then helping the person find who they truly are. As for what this person is legally, i would say male, as this person has undergone what the artical calls a sex change, if they did not change the artical may just refer to them as transgender. That however is just a guess on my part and how i see it.
     
  13. Ceicei

    Ceicei Grandmaster

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    The article is a discussion that should be done openly. Let's focus on the issues that were brought up by the article and shown from comments in this thread (both obvious and subtle):

    1) What is gender and how is it defined? Under what criteria is gender recognized and accepted?

    2) How does hormone treatments effect the unborn child? What are the consequences of terminating or continuing the hormone treatments, even temporarily (for the transgender and for the child)?

    3) What are the views of society to transgenders? Why is this a difficulty for society to recognize and/or accept?

    4) Could the definition of "family" be expanded? Would society be able to accept the changing definition of the family?

    5) Why is there an insistance for acceptance if society chooses to reject behavior/roles which are considered to be outside the "traditional" views? What are the consequences?

    6) Does society have a "right" or "responsibility" to accept/reject such social challenges? Are "traditional" views threatened? Is there room for other views to co-exist?

    - Ceicei
     
  14. Big Don

    Big Don Sr. Grandmaster

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    male [​IMG] /meɪl/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[meyl] –noun 1.a person bearing an X and Y chromosome pair in the cell nuclei and normally having a penis, scrotum, and testicles, and developing hair on the face at adolescence; a boy or man./// Doesn't qualify
    2.an organism of the sex or sexual phase that normally produces a sperm cell or male gamete./// Doesn't qualify 3.Botany. a staminate plant. /// Doesn't qualify –adjective 4.of, pertaining to, or being a male animal or plant./// Doesn't qualify 5.pertaining to or characteristic of a male person; masculine: a male voice./// Doesn't qualify 6.composed of males: a male choir. /// Doesn't qualify 7.Botany. a.designating or pertaining to a plant or its reproductive structure producing or containing microspores. b.(of seed plants) staminate. /// Doesn't qualify 8.Machinery. made to fit into a corresponding open or recessed part: a male plug. Compare female (def. 8)./// Doesn't qualify
    I'm not a doctor, but, an excess of hormones cannot be good.
    As I said before, calling the tail a leg doesn't make it so.
    Not and be self-sustaining
    Because some people think that anything defined as traditional is archaic
     
  15. Empty Hands

    Empty Hands Senior Master

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    In our work we recognize a useful distinction between "sex" and "gender." Gender is mostly a construct - love of toy trucks or pretty princess dolls is no more biologically based than acting dumb during math class so guys will like you. Sex is biological and to an extent hard wired, but the variation is far more than most people will realize or be comfortable with. Truly sex is not binary, but constructed along a continuum. Most people will fall around the male and female means without much trouble, but there will always be outliers. Generally, humans hate and fear those different from themselves, so our challenge is to recognize the humanity of the outliers, learn to deal with them and allow them to define themselves. Anything else is just cruelty.

    Excessive amounts of testosterone could easily masculinize a female fetus, and probably isn't all that good for a male fetus either. Ironically, excess estrogen could masculinize a female fetus due to the actions of an enzyme called aromatase that converts estrogen to testosterone inside the fetus. It works that way normally in rats to masculinize males. That said, excess amounts of female hormones probably aren't going to do much since the placenta produces a rather heroic amount of female enzymes on a daily basis - up to an entire gram of progesterone during late stages of pregnancy!

    In any case, I see in this case where he has discontinued the hormones during the pregnancy. Such an issue is really no different from any regular woman taking any sort of drugs or drinking/smoking during pregnancy, and will probably be dealt with the same way.

    Society, generally speaking, is really squicked out about transgender folks. Truly, the transgendered are very different from most people, and what is different makes people uncomfortable and afraid. Just look at some of the responses in this thread. Just like for gay people, what will eventually work is increased visibility and education over time, and eventually most people will accept them just like most people have learned to accept black people and then gay people in turn.

    Sure to both. An interracial couple didn't used to be considered a legitimate family, and now it is. Same with gay couples with children, although there are still holdouts. Eventually the same will be true of transgendered families.

    Because the rejection is arbitrary and unjust, and causes real pain and problems. Look to the murder of Brandon Teena for why transgendered people are insisting on acceptance. The same paradigm applies, like my theme has shown so far, to the acceptance of black people and then gay people.

    Of course traditional views are threatened. Someone is trying to change the tradition! The thing about traditional views though is that they are always under threat because the world is a fluid place, and is changing all the time. Trying to hold the world in stasis so you feel more comfortable is a pretty futile thing to try to do.
     
  16. Andy Moynihan

    Andy Moynihan Senior Master

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  17. Fiendlover

    Fiendlover Black Belt

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    wow.......... i would normally say something that might be offensive about this but seeing how i dont want offended anyone um....... i guess theres nothing wrong with that...........? i have no idea what to say about this.

    :lurk:
     
  18. Twin Fist

    Twin Fist Grandmaster

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    I am not sure what to think.


    On one hand, good for them for finding a way to have a baby

    On the other hand, EWW?
     
  19. Live True

    Live True Brown Belt

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    quotes form Ceicie(CC) and responses from BIG DON(BD)

    CC-Quote: Response 4) Could the definition of "family" be expanded?

    BD-As I said before, calling the tail a leg doesn't make it so.

    Live true: And refusing to admit that something is a family unit because it personally makes you uncomfortable...doesn't stop it from being a cohesive, supportive family unit (oh yeah, that's part of what families do for one another).

    CC-Quote:
    Would society be able to accept the changing definition of the family?
    BD-Not and be self-sustaining

    LiveTrue: This is an emotional knee jerk reaction, not logic. Science shows that diverse ecosystems survive longer and better, particularly when under stress. It would therefore follow, that a fluid society, one that grows and develops to adapt to changing circumstances, would also be a stronger society able to withstand stress and problems.

    AGain, just becuase you are uncomfortable with difference, does'nt make it a threat, make it wrong, or make it self-defeating. Children of bi-racial couples tend to gain the strongest traits of both races, how is that bad? Diverse ecosystems tend to survive environmental stressors (both predators and changes such as environmental temperatures and changes in wet/dry weather patterns), again proving diversity a better survival tactic.

    It only makes sense that the more variation you have, the more likely you will have a genetic set that can adapt or survive the conditions. To immediately turn your back on something that is different, without a willingness to give it real thought, simply points out that you may be one of those who cannot adapt...and how is that self sustaining?

    You may consider yourself the best and strongest competitor out there. Good for you. If that is so, then why worry about any threats? You are sure to out live them. If it is not, then why don't you consider what you can learn, instead of just being angry?
    CC-Quote:

    5) Why is there an insistance for acceptance if society chooses to reject behavior/roles which are considered to be outside the "traditional" views? What are the consequences?
    BD-Because some people think that anything defined as traditional is archaic

    Live true: hmmm....yes, of course, I see it now...I've been wrong all these years...It's not shades along a continuum Everything is either black or white...how can I have been so wrong?

    Seriously, I think there are MANY folks, myself included, that believe in a lot of traditions; however, we also realize that just because something is tradition, doesn't make it right or right for "right now". Society typically balks at accepting non-traditional roles, becuase it makes categorizing folks harder, and the rules on how to interact in society more difficult. It means you have to THINK instead of go through the motions.

    Personally, I wish more folks did more thoughtful contemplation, even if the end result is that they disagree with me. I can accept a thought out disagreement, becuase I know that choices are hard. But a knee jerk reaction simply points to someone who is, what I refer to as "sheep"...and we have too many of those.

    Challenge your preconceptions, and you'll live longer and happier.
     
  20. RandomPhantom700

    RandomPhantom700 Master of Arts

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    Why would this fail to be self-sustaining? For myself, I would look to whether such families can produce healthy, well-adjusted children to decide whether family units are "self-sustaining". To that end, do you have any reason to think that parents who assume non-traditional gender would end up raising social outcast, or is it just conjecture?

    On the general topic, I'd like to bring up one distinction a friend pointed out to me: the difference between transgenders and transexuals. Transgendered people assume behavior and identity of the opposite sex, but don't physically change their bodies (much)...they retain the same plumbing, shall we say. Transexuals actually go through with the operation because they literally feel uncomfortable in their own bodies enough. One thing my friend pointed out was that any indication of mental illness (depression, bi-polar disorder, etc.) is a bar to having a sex-change.123
     

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