Traditional v modern

[Dirty Dog]

And there is much I do better at 40+ than I did at 20.

But, I would have been physically more able then compared to now.

Unless you were a slob in your 20s, the same is true for you.

So unless you're saying that you think you should get demoted as your technique fades with age, I don't understand the dislike rating

The same is true for many of us.
At 20, I was stronger, more flexible, and had better endurance.
Whoopdee-do.
At near-60, I have a much better understanding of the underlying principles and how to apply them. And since I'm not competing, endurance isn't a factor. Nor is strength. It is a sad reality that I am forced to engage in physical conflicts with people 20-30 years younger than me on a regular basis, and I know without a shadow of a doubt that I'm better able to defend myself now than I was at 20.

 

[pdg]

No, I do not think that at all. Your post was hard to understand.

If read in the context of what it was replying to, I don't think it's very difficult at all.

 

[dvcochran]

All of your questions presume that the goal is known and achievable by both traditional and modern methods. I would posit that this may not be the case, and that the answer to your questions is very much dependent upon the outcome one wishes to achieve.

If one presumes that the goal of martial arts training is to learn to defend oneself, many roads will get you there. Some may get you there faster than others, and again, depending upon the person, since no two of us are the same. I would be willing to believe that many 'modern' martial arts would get a typical person to the point where they could effectively defend themselves in a shorter period of time, very generally speaking.

However, martial arts training covers a lot of territory. Not just in the methods but in the goals.

I study what I consider to be a traditional martial art, Isshinryu, an Okinawan form of karate. We practice many things that others find useless, including things you have described. Wearing a gi, bowing, learning some few Japanese terms for exercises and general courtesy, and so on. We do practice breathing control and basic body conditioning (nothing severe or damaging).

However, my personal goal has little to do with 'self-defense'. I assure you that I am reasonably good at defending myself (not great, but adequate), but if that is why I trained, I would have stopped long ago. I am a believer in karatedo, and the 'do' (pronounced 'dough') means 'way' or 'way of life' in Japanese. This is my path, and I will continue to walk it until I die.

It informs every aspect of my life, and it serves me like a conscience serves some people, like a guiding light, like a higher power, like a path to enlightenment. It's not a religion, I do not worship, nor do I serve. I just walk the path and let myself be instructed as I walk.

I should add that not everyone who studies my art or even in my dojo has the same goal I have. Some may do it for health, some for self-defense, some even for camaraderie. There's no one reason why anyone does anything, right? We all have our reasons, and none is necessarily better than any other. This is just what is right for me. It fits me like a hand in a glove.

Now, can a modern scientific martial art give me that? I doubt it. But horses for courses; I have no doubt many adepts in various modern arts could pummel me until my head rattled like a maraca.

If I wanted to learn to fight in the shortest time possible, I'd take up boxing. Those guys can rumble. And there are plenty of types of martial arts that can produce similar results.

If I wanted to learn to use a sword, I'd take up one of the several sword art styles of martial arts. If I wanted to learn to grapple, then Judo or BJJ or wrestling.

But I do not want to learn anything like that. I want to learn how to live my life in accordance with time and change, according to the principles of right and wrong, good and evil. I find that in the moving meditation of the art I study. You may not see my progress in my kata or how I handle a weapon. My progress is for me and how I live my life.

Traditional martial arts *can* but do not necessarily offer that. Modern arts devoted to effective self-defense provide what they claim to provide.

Very well said.

 

[pdg]

The same is true for many of us.
At 20, I was stronger, more flexible, and had better endurance.
Whoopdee-do.
At near-60, I have a much better understanding of the underlying principles and how to apply them. And since I'm not competing, endurance isn't a factor. Nor is strength. It is a sad reality that I am forced to engage in physical conflicts with people 20-30 years younger than me on a regular basis, and I know without a shadow of a doubt that I'm better able to defend myself now than I was at 20.

And I'd warrant that 20 year old you had 'nicer' technique than you now, or at least would have been capable of it?

By that measure, the statement I was originally challenging (above 1st Dan, promotion should be based on technique) would mean that 20 year old you would deserve a higher grade and greater recognition than you now...

 

[dvcochran]

ninjutsu and systema ??

oh dear

You are doing a spell check? Now that is funny!!!

 

[Dirty Dog]

And I'd warrant that 20 year old you had 'nicer' technique than you now, or at least would have been capable of it?

Oh, for sure. Twenty year old me could put his foot out as high as his head and hold it there while pivoting. Or throw a side kick straight up in the air. Or do a full split while suspended between chairs.
But old me kicks more effectively.

By that measure, the statement I was originally challenging (above 1st Dan, promotion should be based on technique) would mean that 20 year old you would deserve a higher grade and greater recognition than you now...

I got that. I wasn't disagreeing with you.

 

[Gweilo]

don't you practise blowing up fuel depots

Pmsl and you say I'm confused, are they not both based on fliud movement?
How long did you train in these arts?
And please don't forget the Hapkido

 

[Gweilo]

And I'd warrant that 20 year old you had 'nicer' technique than you now, or at least would have been capable of it?

By that measure, the statement I was originally challenging (above 1st Dan, promotion should be based on technique) would mean that 20 year old you would deserve a higher grade and greater recognition than you now...

I would have said the younger me was (quoting Gary busy in point break) young dumb and full of Cum, but knocking on 50, dropped the ego, everything is more fluent, more effecient.

 

[Gweilo]

Good to see chat forums haven't changed, post a controversial topic, there are some good passionate posts here, and some obvious quality martial artist, and there are some self appointed grand masters of the ever burning eternal keyboard Love it

 

[pdg]

and there are some self appointed grand masters of the ever burning eternal keyboard

I'll have you know I earned my title of senior master, it was in no way self appointed

 

[Gweilo]

I'll have you know I earned my title of senior master, it was in no way self appointed

I did not mean their forum status lol

 

[Gweilo]

Another point I would like to make, some posts mentioned the little details (and I agree to a point).
One of the main reasons forms, or katas, still exist, is that even though they are not used to defend against imminent threats, they are still effective ways of Self Defense, and can be applied in such situations. In fact, they are so capable of producing harm on others, that most instructors ban explicit explanations of these techniques on their students in order to protect them while practicing.

Hard Sparring has changed its meaning just as well. In the same manner a football player tackles another player to develop an effective way to stop an opponent, a Martial Artist spars others in order to prove his or her skills as effective ways of fighting. However, the way sparring was practiced in the past led to multiple injuries and permanent damage on the participants. Nowadays, professional gear is used to protect every vital part of the body.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

A few thoughts on this, some in response to your post, and some are more properly responses to posts you're referring to (but I'm too lazy to go back and find @JowGaWolf's post).

Another point I would like to make, some posts mentioned the little details (and I agree to a point).

On details: I agree with nearly everything JGW said about details, except for one thing. I have seen no evidence that something like paying attention to the details of belt-uniform tying is at all related to the detail observation for fighting. I'm more willing to accept it might be related to the detailed eye during learning, but I'm skeptical of even that, as that seems to be more dependent upon a combination of experience and personality. Some instructors use details in the dojo, attention to the uniform, etc. as training tools, but I think it's more likely to simply develop the basic life skill of dealing with detail (which some of us are not naturally good at).

One of the main reasons forms, or katas, still exist, is that even though they are not used to defend against imminent threats, they are still effective ways of Self Defense, and can be applied in such situations. In fact, they are so capable of producing harm on others, that most instructors ban explicit explanations of these techniques on their students in order to protect them while practicing.

I'm not a fan of any claim that a technique is too dangerous to train properly. If it is, then it shouldn't be in the syllabus (if you're not going to train it properly, don't train it). Unless it's a flying technique or something (like a flying kick), it can be trained slowly for precision and safety. If it can't be trained safely, it simply cannot be trained and isn't worth including.

There are techniques that cannot be safely used in free sparring if you want to avoid injury. I'm thinking here of finger/hand locks, many wrist locks, etc. But those can still be practiced by a combination of slower practice, faster practice without full resistance (not trying to stop the technique once started), and full resistance without attempting to complete the technique (releasing a lock before a critical point or taking a grip that simulates the movement for the break, but isn't capable of locking the joint).

Hard Sparring has changed its meaning just as well. In the same manner a football player tackles another player to develop an effective way to stop an opponent, a Martial Artist spars others in order to prove his or her skills as effective ways of fighting. However, the way sparring was practiced in the past led to multiple injuries and permanent damage on the participants. Nowadays, professional gear is used to protect every vital part of the body.

In most cases, changes to rules have provided the protection. Gear cannot protect against most injuries that could happen without rules. There's even some evidence that adding padding to hands and heads increases the power people punch to the head with (and the frequency of those hits), increasing the chance of head injury.

 

[jobo]

Pmsl and you say I'm confused, are they not both based on fliud movement?
How long did you train in these arts?
And please don't forget the Hapkido

I didn't say you were confused ! and I'm only teasing,

but your drawing wide ranging comparisons between trad and mod arts based on your experience of two arts that are far from typical or either class

,training to be a feudal warrior is always going to be a bit out dated,

systema is not an art that uses modern fitness processes and it involves grown men dressing up in camaflarge pants ,and pretending they are Russian warriors

but like all martial arts I respect both of them, it's just they are not the basis for a discussion on more main stream arts

 

[Gweilo]

To be honest with you, I don't understand those who wear military clothing in training either, but we do not blow up fuel stations or rescue farm animals from slaughter houses, that would be the so say Spetznaz military styles, although I will admit Vladimir Vasiliev and Mikhail Ryabko the founders of the Systema I practice have worn military pants, but this is probably because they were formerly Russian military and intelligence officers.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

To be honest with you, I don't understand those who wear military clothing in training either, but we do not blow up fuel stations or rescue farm animals from slaughter houses, that would be the so say Spetznaz military styles, although I will admit Vladimir Vasiliev and Mikhail Ryabko the founders of the Systema I practice have worn military pants, but this is probably because they were formerly Russian military and intelligence officers.

In my mind, those wearing military clothing aren't any weirder than those of us who wear gi/dogi/dobok. Hell, I wear a hakama (basically a skirt) most of the time when I'm teaching/training. That's certainly odder than a pair of fatigue pants.

 

[jobo]

In my mind, those wearing military clothing aren't any weirder than those of us who wear gi/dogi/dobok. Hell, I wear a hakama (basically a skirt) most of the time when I'm teaching/training. That's certainly odder than a pair of fatigue pants.

people like dressing up, even people who are anti uniform , tend to wear a uniform of some sort, hence the army fatigues

but middle aged men dressing up as warrior s is odd, and I say that as a middled man who does just that

 

[jobo]

To be honest with you, I don't understand those who wear military clothing in training either, but we do not blow up fuel stations or rescue farm animals from slaughter houses, that would be the so say Spetznaz military styles, although I will admit Vladimir Vasiliev and Mikhail Ryabko the founders of the Systema I practice have worn military pants, but this is probably because they were formerly Russian military and intelligence officers.

so back to your original, point, if we accept being a ninja is possibly outdated, sword art and tieing your horse up to make a quick escape.

what modern benefits does systema give you over say karate ?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

people like dressing up, even people who are anti uniform , tend to wear a uniform of some sort, hence the army fatigues

but middle aged men dressing up as warrior s is odd, and I say that as a middled man who does just that

I think most of us in MA for any length of time aren’t quite right, anyway.

 

[dvcochran]

Another point I would like to make, some posts mentioned the little details (and I agree to a point).
One of the main reasons forms, or katas, still exist, is that even though they are not used to defend against imminent threats, they are still effective ways of Self Defense, and can be applied in such situations. In fact, they are so capable of producing harm on others, that most instructors ban explicit explanations of these techniques on their students in order to protect them while practicing.

Hard Sparring has changed its meaning just as well. In the same manner a football player tackles another player to develop an effective way to stop an opponent, a Martial Artist spars others in order to prove his or her skills as effective ways of fighting. However, the way sparring was practiced in the past led to multiple injuries and permanent damage on the participants. Nowadays, professional gear is used to protect every vital part of the body.

I could not hit agree after the line about "hidden techniques". There are advanced techniques that are taught at advanced ranks, but most any technique can be at least mildly dangerous if done carelessly. The more technical the move, the greater risk of injury to the giver or the receiver. Ideas like this that still try to hold MA in a mystic realm just need to die. Do I believe there are skills that are extraordinary and seldom mastered? Yes. Partly because they are not understood therefore not taught or practiced, partly because they take a very long time to perfect. Only the opportunist still try to hold these moves under the "ancient Chinese secret" banner.
What cannot be denied is that over time man has learned, analyzed, broken down, challenged, refined, and yes improved MA. The way of the world, finding the shortest distance a point has gave rise to styles like MMA that is an amalgam of most all MA. Stripping down systems and only using the fighting elements. Great for its intended purpose and not much else. I believe as we continue to analyze and realize all the benefits of most TMA, an even greater understanding of their original intended purposes will be realized and practiced. IMHO.