Traditional v modern

[JowGaWolf]

Why does anyone get to define what is traditional or modern, for anyone but themselves?

Apparently my definition is different from his. The old stuff has survived because it still works. That is my experience.

You can have any definition that you want for Traditional vs Modern. To me it doesn't matter. The only thing that I care about is that people don't misunderstand my perspective of it. If my definition makes you think that I believe that Jow Ga is lacking, then I will correct that misunderstanding.

I also reject his assertion that (as far as I understand his message to be) that anyone practicing an old system is doing so with the goal to preserve the system as it existed in the past, in spite of the possibility/probability that it is no longer relevant and does not work very well.

What are you reading? Where did I say any of that. Show me where I talked about something "no longer relevant." or that "anyone practicing an old system is doing so with the goal to preserve the system as it existed." You do know that I practice an old system and fight with it too. So what sense would it make for me to say that? The assumptions you are making right now is a direct result of your own bias. I have no idea how you can even come close to assuming that's what I've been typing about, unless you are just skimming through what I'm typing.

I don't think that second part was part of his assertion. I think he was saying if you practice an old style for the purpose of preservation, that makes it (by his definition) "traditional", regardless of whether it's functional or not.

But maybe I misread it

You didn't misread it. That's exactly what I'm saying. I'm not sure why he's totally missing what I'm saying. It has nothing to do about what's lacking or what's more efficient. That's not the goal of maintaining the old ways.

 

[Flying Crane]

You can have any definition that you want for Traditional vs Modern. To me it doesn't matter. The only thing that I care about is that people don't misunderstand my perspective of it. If my definition makes you think that I believe that Jow Ga is lacking, then I will correct that misunderstanding.


What are you reading? Where did I say any of that. Show me where I talked about something "no longer relevant." or that "anyone practicing an old system is doing so with the goal to preserve the system as it existed." You do know that I practice an old system and fight with it too. So what sense would it make for me to say that? The assumptions you are making right now is a direct result of your own bias. I have no idea how you can even come close to assuming that's what I've been typing about, unless you are just skimming through what I'm typing.

You didn't misread it. That's exactly what I'm saying. I'm not sure why he's totally missing what I'm saying. It has nothing to do about what's lacking or what's more efficient. That's not the goal of maintaining the old ways.

Thank you for the clarification. It sounds like I did misunderstand what you were saying. And I was having trouble making that sync with what I’ve seen you post in the past. Something seemed genuinely “off” and I couldn’t make sense of it.

I think we are very much on the same page, actually. As Ive said, to me what makes it traditional is largely its age, having been passed from generation to generation. It’s age will mean that there are holdovers from an older era, but at the same time that should not be all that it is about. What is key to it’s being passed down is that it works, and still works in the modern age. If it did not work then it would have stopped being passed down.

But at the same time it does get changed by every generation. Some of it is just human idiosyncracies but it can also be due to better insights into training and application methods and incorporating material and approaches from other methods. So as you say, it is both traditional and modern at the same time and I agree with that.

I would say that your example of the foot sweep is a good one. Personally, I would never say that doing the sweep higher makes it foreign to the system. In my opinion, you learn the sweep a certain way but then have freedom to apply it in any way appropriate and necessary. So if it is formally taught as a low movement but you apply it as a higher movement, in my opinion that is still the same technique and falls within your freedom of application to fit the circumstances. To say that nobody in Jow Ga does it that way strikes me as odd, to be honest. But at the same time it can be a point of evolution if it catches on.

At any rate, thanks for the clarification, I do appreciate it.

 

[Flying Crane]

If you don't care if your Pugilism is functional then you will be happy with just learning the old ways
If you care if your Pugilism is functional then your Pugilism will evolve simply because it has to address the current hand to hand combat skills of the day. You won't be able to afford to "keep it old" or "Keep it in the context of a different time period."

Fighting systems are the same way. Exactly like the Wheel. If you care about keeping your system functional then it's going to evolve to meet the needs of the present day.
Fighting systems can also be traditional at the same time and is often referred to as traditional when the system no longer seeks to meet the needs of the present day fighting. In this case people just do it to keep alive the "old ways" they are sort of like the keepers of history. If you need a blue print then they got it. For people like that the need to be functional is not important.

Just for the info, these are the passages, especially the bolded portion, that got me confused about what your message was.

 

[JowGaWolf]

To say that nobody in Jow Ga does it that way strikes me as odd, to be honest.

That's where the tradition kicks in with Jow Ga.
The guy in the blue is a Jow Ga practioner. at 0:59 he does the low sweep which is taught in the Jow ga schools.

This would be similar to the back sweeps taught in Jow Ga. It has to be low.

I haven't seen a Jow Ga practitioner do a back sweep while in a higher stance, which is weird because the front sweep has different ranges but they don't apply that same concept of range to the back sweep. For Jow Ga the back sweep is always low.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Just for the info, these are the passages, especially the bolded portion, that got me confused about what your message was.

It happens. One day I'm just going to do audio responses for topics like this.

 

[Steve]

Thank you for the clarification. It sounds like I did misunderstand what you were saying. And I was having trouble making that sync with what I’ve seen you post in the past. Something seemed genuinely “off” and I couldn’t make sense of it.

I think we are very much on the same page, actually. As Ive said, to me what makes it traditional is largely its age, having been passed from generation to generation. It’s age will mean that there are holdovers from an older era, but at the same time that should not be all that it is about. What is key to it’s being passed down is that it works, and still works in the modern age. If it did not work then it would have stopped being passed down.

But at the same time it does get changed by every generation. Some of it is just human idiosyncracies but it can also be due to better insights into training and application methods and incorporating material and approaches from other methods. So as you say, it is both traditional and modern at the same time and I agree with that.

I would say that your example of the foot sweep is a good one. Personally, I would never say that doing the sweep higher makes it foreign to the system. In my opinion, you learn the sweep a certain way but then have freedom to apply it in any way appropriate and necessary. So if it is formally taught as a low movement but you apply it as a higher movement, in my opinion that is still the same technique and falls within your freedom of application to fit the circumstances. To say that nobody in Jow Ga does it that way strikes me as odd, to be honest. But at the same time it can be a point of evolution if it catches on.

At any rate, thanks for the clarification, I do appreciate it.

@JowGaWolf i commend you for pulling @Flying Crane out of his stubborn cycle of prejudgment. Chalk this up to welcome things I never thought I’d see.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

This would be similar to the back sweeps taught in Jow Ga. It has to be low.

I like the "backward foot sweep". I always told my TKD friends that CMA has spin hook kick. We just don't kick that high.

The forward/backward sweep is one of the basic training drills in the long fist system. It does not exist in the Chinese wrestling for the following reasons.

- It's much easier to use 2 points contact foot sweep than just 1 point contact foot sweep.
- If your opponent turns his shin bone into your sweep, he can stop your sweep very easy.
- Your opponent can use jumping crescent kick to counter you. When he does that, his body weight will give you trouble.

I recorded the following 8mm film from my student's form competition during a 1974 Dallas Karate tournament (to memorize Bruce Lee's 1 years death). I just can't believe it has been almost 45 years ago. In this clip, you can see the double jumping crescent kicks is used to counter the forward foot sweep.

 

[JowGaWolf]

@JowGaWolf i commend you for pulling @Flying Crane out of his stubborn cycle of prejudgment. Chalk this up to welcome things I never thought I’d see.

For me I just don't want people to misunderstand me or my perspective. I don't mind if people disagree with my perspective, just as long as what they are disagreeing with is actually my perspective.

I'm actually happy that Flying Crane made the effort to understand and to point out what he was confused about so I could explain myself better. Gpseymour "The Professional Explainer of things" was a big help too. It's really easy for bias to slip in when it comes to martial arts. I'm guilty of that as well from time to time. I'm hoping the audio can help clear it up.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

"The Professional Explainer of things"

I might add that to my signature. It's a pretty apt description of my communication style.

 

[Steve]

For me I just don't want people to misunderstand me or my perspective. I don't mind if people disagree with my perspective, just as long as what they are disagreeing with is actually my perspective.

I'm actually happy that Flying Crane made the effort to understand and to point out what he was confused about so I could explain myself better. Gpseymour "The Professional Explainer of things" was a big help too. It's really easy for bias to slip in when it comes to martial arts. I'm guilty of that as well from time to time. I'm hoping the audio can help clear it up.

Me too. The effort to understand was specifically what I was referring to. Well done.