Traditional or not?

[newGuy12]

Despite all of the reasons to not follow it, I believe that it lends something extra to the practice, it gives it a sense of not just being a method of fighting, but even moreso a way of life.

It is more than just kicking and punching. We had testing today and a 17 year old boy tested for 1st black belt (promotional black belt rank). He read an essay that he wrote about TKD. In there he said that he now has a big family, little brothers that he did not have before and so forth.

We have a culture like this, you see. No one can tell me different. Those who know of this, what I speak of, know. Others I will not try to convince, what is the point in it?

Also, there are some yoga teachers who write books. I have read where they say, "Place your yoga mat down in the same place in the house when you do these poses". Don't move it about, sometimes here, sometimes there, if it can be avoided. Then, roll the mat up nicely and put it away, do not treat it as a mundane thing.

See, for people like me, this helps to make the brain concentrate. It is cheating, but it still works. It tricks the brain -- This is special what I am about to do. I take the mat down and place it right here, where it goes. It is not simply a haphazard thing I will do, but a mindful thing. I wish to engage my mind more fully with my quest, not just do the physical poses.

I tend to suspect that there are similiar reasons why we do some things in TKD, but also, I care not about this. I simply follow without question. We were told to never complain, never backtalk the Teacher, and never question the Teacher. I wished to learn this as well as I could, and so that is what I did, and do.

 

[SageGhost83]

It is more than just kicking and punching. We had testing today and a 17 year old boy tested for 1st black belt (promotional black belt rank). He read an essay that he wrote about TKD. In there he said that he now has a big family, little brothers that he did not have before and so forth.

We have a culture like this, you see. No one can tell me different. Those who know of this, what I speak of, know. Others I will not try to convince, what is the point in it?

Also, there are some yoga teachers who write books. I have read where they say, "Place your yoga mat down in the same place in the house when you do these poses". Don't move it about, sometimes here, sometimes there, if it can be avoided. Then, roll the mat up nicely and put it away, do not treat it as a mundane thing.

See, for people like me, this helps to make the brain concentrate. It is cheating, but it still works. It tricks the brain -- This is special what I am about to do. I take the mat down and place it right here, where it goes. It is not simply a haphazard thing I will do, but a mindful thing. I wish to engage my mind more fully with my quest, not just do the physical poses.

I tend to suspect that there are similiar reasons why we do some things in TKD, but also, I care not about this. I simply follow without question. We were told to never complain, never backtalk the Teacher, and never question the Teacher. I wished to learn this as well as I could, and so that is what I did, and do.

Beautiful post, my friend. The mindful thing is a lot like what is done in the military as far as making one's bed. To the uninitiated, it may seem like something that is completely worthless and inconsequential, but to those of us who are in it, it is a form of training in and of itself and it teaches us to pay attention to detail and be aware of everything, even the small things. If you do the little things well, then the bigger things will follow. Tradition really does get that deep, and it is something that cannot be communicated through words, it is something that must be experienced to be understood. I respect those who do not follow tradition, but I think that they are missing out on something that is simply priceless not just in the Martial Arts sense, but in life, period.

 

[YoungMan]

Tradition serves to remind us that true martial arts are much more than just kicking, punching, blocking, and fighting.
Part of Tae Kwon Do tradition is based on ideas that go back almost 2000 years. Because of that, you don't just change them because YOU don't like them or understand. Tae Kwon Do and its philosophies are much bigger than one person; they have a reason, even if you don't know what it is.
Example: the national colors of the United States are red, white, and blue, and have been for well over 200 years. Don't like them? Tough. The meanings go back to well before you were born, and you would do well to understand them rather just change them because you don't why it is the way it is.

 

[SageGhost83]

Tradition serves to remind us that true martial arts are much more than just kicking, punching, blocking, and fighting.

Actually, no they are not. "True martial arts" were created with one purpose in mind - to ensure victory on the battlefeild. The traditions and other stuff were added on to the art so that it would remain relevant in times of peace. Most so-called "traditions" are recent creations, too. Yes, you can change them if you don't like them - they are not so holy as to be the equivalent of God's unquestionable word. They were created by flesh and blood humans just like me and you, so who is to say that flesh and blood humans just like me and you cannot change them and/or improve upon them? Most people change them or choose to not follow them because they don't fit in with what they seek or what they are trying to accomplish in the martial arts. Different folks train for different reasons, all of them valid. I am not trying to attack tradition, for I am a traditionalist, myself. However, I think that we must keep things in perspective and not build them up to be more than they actually are. We know all too well the devastating effects of blind extremism...

 

[SageGhost83]

My buddy that is the #2 man in his system of karate has a unique take on the tradition & even formality of MA. He tells his students that the reason that we have formality is simply to get things done in a class setting. Otherwise, we wouldn't get far. Looking at MA or any tye of class setting, this is true at it's base. All MA (even MMA & JKD) have some sorts of traditions, formality & structure simply to get things done. No matter how "untraditional" a program's intent, it has it's traditions.

Yes, and that is true. There are a lot of things that are tradition simply because that is the best way to get things done. The enbusen rule comes to mind with this one. There are traditionalists who swear up and down that there is some mystical deeper meaning behind starting and finishing a form in the same place, but the rule was created to conserve space on the dojo floor due to the large number of people practicing at one time. Likewise, the uniform is simply the form of dress that a master has chosen for his students to wear in class. Karate liked the judo gi, so they decided to use it in their style. Taekwondo used it, too. However, they eventually wanted their own uniform, so voila - we have the dobok. Nothing mystical or super deep about it, it is just a matter of taste. Tradition is awesome as long as we keep it in perspective and don't become all arrogant and extremist with it. I follow them, but I would never look down on someone and regard them as the martial arts equivalent of a heathen because they choose not to follow them for reasons of their own. Balance is the key.

 

[SageGhost83]

I have been thinking. I played American football for a number of years. As an American football player, we did things that brought us closer together and created a sense of family that was just as strong as anything found in the martial arts. They weren't exactly tradition because the team that I played for didn't really have a tradition of its own, we just kind of showed up and did what we had to do to win the game. So maybe that special "something" has nothing to do with following a particular tradition. Maybe it comes from struggling, growing, and overcoming adversity together. That can be gained without adhering to strict traditionalism. We were also drilled to do the little things such as lining up on the line of scrimmage at a certain point and coming out of our stance at a certain level. Again, not sacred tradition, but they were little things that when taken care of make the big things that much easier.

 

[DArnold]

Actually, no they are not. "True martial arts" were created with one purpose in mind - to ensure victory on the battlefeild. The traditions and other stuff were added on to the art so that it would remain relevant in times of peace. Most so-called "traditions" are recent creations, too. Yes, you can change them if you don't like them - they are not so holy as to be the equivalent of God's unquestionable word. They were created by flesh and blood humans just like me and you, so who is to say that flesh and blood humans just like me and you cannot change them and/or improve upon them? Most people change them or choose to not follow them because they don't fit in with what they seek or what they are trying to accomplish in the martial arts. Different folks train for different reasons, all of them valid. I am not trying to attack tradition, for I am a traditionalist, myself. However, I think that we must keep things in perspective and not build them up to be more than they actually are. We know all too well the devastating effects of blind extremism...

Although I do not know what your meaning of "True Martial Arts" is as this comment is a rather generic statement...

If the definition of "Respect" is deffering to somone elses judgement, would you call that "blind extremism"?

Where do you draw the line between thinking your knowledge is all encompasing and showing respect for something that is being given to you? For those who can not control their mind with the simplest of acts shows me that they are not ready to be given more.

I also differ with your oppinion... if you study where many of the martial arts were taught/studied they do have religious ties and the traditions do have quite a history.

If you study Shinto, the basis of most all eastern religions you would understand why you don't drag your belt around on the ground, or why it is just as much of a mental insult as a physical insult to kick somone in the head!

Cheers :wink2:

 

[SageGhost83]

Although I do not know what your meaning of "True Martial Arts" is as this comment is a rather generic statement...

If the definition of "Respect" is deffering to somone elses judgement, would you call that "blind extremism"?

Where do you draw the line between thinking your knowledge is all encompasing and showing respect for something that is being given to you? For those who can not control their mind with the simplest of acts shows me that they are not ready to be given more.

I also differ with your oppinion... if you study where many of the martial arts were taught/studied they do have religious ties and the traditions do have quite a history.

If you study Shinto, the basis of most all eastern religions you would understand why you don't drag your belt around on the ground, or why it is just as much of a mental insult as a physical insult to kick somone in the head!

Cheers :wink2:

- I was responding to an earlier post that made a bold statement concerning what is "True martial arts".

- No, I would not call that blind extremism. What I would call blind extremism is taking the position that anything that is different from what one does themselves is inherently wrong or that it should be attacked for no other reason than it is not part of one's own tradition.

- I am not so arrogant as to think that my knowledge is all encompassing in the first place, and I always show respect for all things being given to me as that is how I was raised, so there is no need to draw such a line in the first place. I agree with you on the readiness of someone else, but that is not strictly in the realm of tradition. A football coach is not going to start a player if he feels that his skills will be a liability, likewise, a martial arts instructor is not going to teach another student if he/she feels that they will be a liability.

- Notice that I said "most" and not "all". Obviously, the tradition of bowing to show respect isn't a recent creation. The last time that I checked, soldiers on the battlefeild didn't wear gi's or colored belts, so I don't see exactly how this is relevant concerning the arts of war when they were used on the battlefield. It is the time window that we are talking about here - most of what we practice today is chock full of modern conventions. We didn't have a belt system until the japanese created it in the 20th century - not exactly ancient. Kicking someone in the head is insulting today, but do you seriously think that soldiers were discouraged to kick someone in the head during those warring times on the battlefeild? As a matter of fact, kicking to head was actually allowed until very recently, so that is not exactly an ancient tradition, either. Religion was not an inherent part of the MARTIAL arts (I capitalize martial because there are arts that are classified as martial arts when they are really healing arts and/or meditative arts. Of course these arts have religious connotations because that is a major part of why they were created in the first place, as opposed to martial arts that were created for war and such other dirty business). Now, there were individual warriors who studied Buddhism to augment their physical skills, and of course when facing death every day their own personal beliefs entered into what they were doing, but for the most part training was cold, brutal business as usual for them sans the "Do" element (which is one of the reasons why we have "jutsu" and "Do"). The "Do" was actually the fusing together of the martial art and the religious elements to create a more wholesome practice experience and to keep the arts around when they were no longer needed for their original purpose.

- Are you saying that Shinto was the basis of most all eastern religions? I am not trying to be a smart aleck, just the way that you worded it in the post isn't clear.

 

[SageGhost83]

.....okay, judging by the relative "silence" since my last post, I am going to go out on a limb and say that I have rubbed everybody the wrong way. So, my deepest apologies to everyone. I wasn't trying to insult tradition or offend any of you, it's just the philosophy degree going haywire and overanalyzing everything again :lol2:. I'll just sit over here in the corner and be quiet :asian:.

 

[SageGhost83]

Actually, I have stumbled upon something in Classical Fighting Arts Magazine. Alan Ruddock did a feature called Aikido Memoirs in and he said something very interesting regarding a lot of the attitudes in traditional martial arts. I thought that I would provide an excerpt from CFA Issue No. 35 article "Aikido Memoirs part 2".

Excerpt:

"Respect other people and their traditions...but remember, respect is a two way street. It is actually disturbing to see the manner in which some students are accustomed to being misused, and worse, their impression that whatever the sensei does must be right. They have switched off two buttons in their brain called common sense and self respect. O-sensei, although a deeply religious man, never insisted that we adopt a Shinto, Zen, or any other path as a means to understand Aikido. In fact, the idea of Aikido as a kind of religion is totally alien to me, and I suspect to anyone else who was actually there at the time O-Sensei was alive. He was putting over universal principles about harmony and respect for others. He never gave any inkling of wanting to impose any religious system on students. I was brought up in the Christian tradition and subsequently studied Zen, Taoism, Gurdjieff, and Therevada Buddhism without feeling this made me any less Christian or more capable in Aikido. It certainly never gave me the desire to force this down other people's throats in the name of Aikido." (Ruddock 33, 34)

Alan Ruddock was a student of O-Sensei and trained with him in person. I found this article and the excerpt really stuck out to me concerning the attitudes within traditional martial arts. I think that it goes to show that a lot of the traditional things are taken way out of proportion at times and turned into something that they clearly are not and were never meant to be in the first place.

 

[DArnold]

.....okay, judging by the relative "silence" since my last post, I am going to go out on a limb and say that I have rubbed everybody the wrong way. So, my deepest apologies to everyone. I wasn't trying to insult tradition or offend any of you, it's just the philosophy degree going haywire and overanalyzing everything again :lol2:. I'll just sit over here in the corner and be quiet :asian:.

Nah, You are doing great!
And it seems we agree on a lot.
As this medium is never great for conveying thoughts, only through the continued perserverence, as you have done, do you get closer to the meaning of people.

Also, I just don't get on here that often.

Yes, No matter what is created for good, someone will turn around and use it for bad.

And, wether it is a belt, an insignia, epelets, or a weapon (like the chinease had for generals) the concept of rank has carried down through the ages and is nothing new.

As for the football coach analogy, there are such things called "building years" or where a person must be promoted in order to grow. We have this in many stages of the arts.

My analogy to Shinto was, as I alluded, not the physical but the spiritual. In Shinto the top of the head is the most holey as it is the gateway of the spirits, and the feet are the most defiled as they are in constant contact with the earth. Thus kicking someone in the head is not just a physical insult, but I am also telling you what I think of you by wiping the most defiled part of my body on the holest part of yours!

As you are correct that this should not replace your religion, many practice the guidlines of the Martial Arts more than they do their own religion. (I Do) And many confuse the two(I Don't). However, just as many religions are parallel lines... parallel lines do meet on the horizon. And it can be said that most religions do not practice what they preach. (so should we start calling them McChurchDo's?)

I saw a great bumper sticker yeaserday. It said, "I have no problem with GOD, it's his followers I can't get along with!"

So wether you follow, "Do unto others..." or "I Shall build a more peaceful world" they are quite similar.

Thanks,

 

[SageGhost83]

Nah, You are doing great!
And it seems we agree on a lot.
As this medium is never great for conveying thoughts, only through the continued perserverence, as you have done, do you get closer to the meaning of people.

Also, I just don't get on here that often.

Yes, No matter what is created for good, someone will turn around and use it for bad.

And, wether it is a belt, an insignia, epelets, or a weapon (like the chinease had for generals) the concept of rank has carried down through the ages and is nothing new.

As for the football coach analogy, there are such things called "building years" or where a person must be promoted in order to grow. We have this in many stages of the arts.

My analogy to Shinto was, as I alluded, not the physical but the spiritual. In Shinto the top of the head is the most holey as it is the gateway of the spirits, and the feet are the most defiled as they are in constant contact with the earth. Thus kicking someone in the head is not just a physical insult, but I am also telling you what I think of you by wiping the most defiled part of my body on the holest part of yours!

As you are correct that this should not replace your religion, many practice the guidlines of the Martial Arts more than they do their own religion. (I Do) And many confuse the two(I Don't). However, just as many religions are parallel lines... parallel lines do meet on the horizon. And it can be said that most religions do not practice what they preach. (so should we start calling them McChurchDo's?)

I saw a great bumper sticker yeaserday. It said, "I have no problem with GOD, it's his followers I can't get along with!"

So wether you follow, "Do unto others..." or "I Shall build a more peaceful world" they are quite similar.

Thanks,

I see. I reread my other post and realized that it sounded as though I came off as a jerk and it also sounded like it could be misinterpreted as an attacking post - neither being my intention. I actually got the Shinto connection that you were originally alluding to, and I agree with you all of the way on that. I was looking at it more from the military/soldier perspective of "so what - as long as it works and allows me to see another day". It comes back to that whole "Jutsu" and "DO" thing. Yes, I think that we do hold a lot of the same views - I just screw up more than you and send the wrong impression when I present mine :lol2:!