Traditional or not?

[TaeKwonDoKevin]

WOW - Very nice Thread........I just might start one similar on my site
I could list MANY things.
1-When I first started TaeKwonDo in 1978, the Pants had to stop in the middle of the calf. I had actually witnessed this being checked.

2-Can't cross your arms.......crazy, this was in the ATA, then many of the photos had the Masters crossing their arms. I remember asking about this. Evidently you weren't suppose to question the rules.

3-Can't roll up the sleeves

4- Yes...turn around while you tie the belt and straighten the Uniform

5-NEVER let the Belt touch the floor

6-Never eat while wearing the DoBok

7-No colored uniforms or "extra patches /badges" Keep it simple. Much like the ITF still does.

These rules and many others have stuck with me, even though my present day Instructor may not have them, I still enforce them. And I tend to find myself looking down on those that don't have the same strictness of discipline.:jaw-dropping:
I am ashamed to admitt that part.......hopefully I will get over the crazy stuff. It may be OK for me, but I need to respect Instructors that do it differently, and I do!
-Kevin

 

[DArnold]

WOW - Very nice Thread........I just might start one similar on my site
I could list MANY things.
1-When I first started TaeKwonDo in 1978, the Pants had to stop in the middle of the calf. I had actually witnessed this being checked.

2-Can't cross your arms.......crazy, this was in the ATA, then many of the photos had the Masters crossing their arms. I remember asking about this. Evidently you weren't suppose to question the rules.

3-Can't roll up the sleeves

4- Yes...turn around while you tie the belt and straighten the Uniform

5-NEVER let the Belt touch the floor

6-Never eat while wearing the DoBok

7-No colored uniforms or "extra patches /badges" Keep it simple. Much like the ITF still does.

These rules and many others have stuck with me, even though my present day Instructor may not have them, I still enforce them. And I tend to find myself looking down on those that don't have the same strictness of discipline.:jaw-dropping:
I am ashamed to admitt that part.......hopefully I will get over the crazy stuff. It may be OK for me, but I need to respect Instructors that do it differently, and I do!
-Kevin

Are you saying you don't know why you do these things?

 

[Laurentkd]

We don't cross our arms in the dojang either. My sahbonim thinks it shows an unwilling mind-set and is disrespectful. For what it is worth, studies show that we have more trouble remembering what we are taught when our arms are crossed. So there seems to be something to it besides just tradition!

 

[Fiendlover]

hahaha to not let ur belt EVER touch the floor. i guess its disrespectful and its not like i do it on person but if im tying it on since its usually long its going to touch the ground. but i saw others do it but my sensei only baarely enforced it cuz shihan said not do it but sensei usually just said "dont let shihan see you with that on the floor" but i just though that sensei was leaniant on it and that shihan was actually saying that was a tradition.

 

[Fiendlover]

*purpose

 

[SageGhost83]

hahaha to not let ur belt EVER touch the floor. i guess its disrespectful and its not like i do it on person but if im tying it on since its usually long its going to touch the ground. but i saw others do it but my sensei only baarely enforced it cuz shihan said not do it but sensei usually just said "dont let shihan see you with that on the floor" but i just though that sensei was leaniant on it and that shihan was actually saying that was a tradition.

That is interesting. We are usually required to dress in the back room while the master is out on the floor with the senior students discussing what they are going to go over in class with us color belt guys. Therefore, they wouldn't be able to see whether our belts hit the floor or not . By the way, I like your signature!

 

[YoungMan]

We were told to not let our belts touch the ground either. Even if we dressed away from the classroom, it eventually became ingrained in us to follow that custom out of respect for our instructor.
I suppose one of the true marks of a student is what he does when the instructor is not around and he doesn't have to obey. We always followed custom even when not in class.
Much like the military. A soldier will always follow military custom even if the DI is not around out of respect.

 

[SageGhost83]

Agreed. Some of us took advantage of the fact that the instructor wasn't around, but for the most part we didn't let it touch the ground because it was habit. It was the butt of many locker room jokes to "accidentally" let it touch, though :whip::lol2:. Personally, I got lazy at times, but the rigid Shotokan budoka in me kept me honest.

 

[JWLuiza]

Agreed. Some of us took advantage of the fact that the instructor wasn't around, but for the most part we didn't let it touch the ground because it was habit. It was the butt of many locker room jokes to "accidentally" let it touch, though :whip::lol2:. Personally, I got lazy at times, but the rigid Shotokan budoka in me kept me honest.

www.24fightingchickens.com has some interesting articles on this. The belt urban legends and such... I've learned much of what is tradition in the west is unheard of in asian dojos/dojangs.

I would consider myself a traditionalist in technique, but not in pedagogy.

 

[SageGhost83]

The 24fightingchickens website! How did I miss that one? I see exactly what you are saying. I have heard stories from people who have gone to train in their art's country of origin and they got strange looks from the natives while adhering to "tradition". I guess that I stick with it because it is part of my training and it gives it a kind of personality, so to speak. I don't consider them oh-so-holy and unbreakable, but I like them and I like to stay true to them. I found this article to be very interesting and truthful, though probably not very popular among hardcore traditionalists :lol:: http://www.24fightingchickens.com/2007/05/17/tradition-change-power/

I guess it all comes down to why we are in it in the first place. I like tradition, but I respect those who do not because everyone has their own reasons for practicing.

 

[JWLuiza]

The 24fightingchickens website! How did I miss that one? I see exactly what you are saying. I have heard stories from people who have gone to train in their art's country of origin and they got strange looks from the natives while adhering to "tradition". I guess that I stick with it because it is part of my training and it gives it a kind of personality, so to speak. I don't consider them oh-so-holy and unbreakable, but I like them and I like to stay true to them. I found this article to be very interesting and truthful, though probably not very popular among hardcore traditionalists :lol:: http://www.24fightingchickens.com/2007/05/17/tradition-change-power/

I guess it all comes down to why we are in it in the first place. I like tradition, but I respect those who do not because everyone has their own reasons for practicing.

I don't mind people who do these things (like OSU!!!!!) but I prefer them to, like you, have a cogent reason behind it other than, "OMG IT"S TRADITION" without being open to the truth of any behaviors etymology.

 

[YoungMan]

If I am by myself, or with another black belt of equal rank that I know well, then the rules can be bent. Especially if it's two black belts who are friends, the rules can be whatever they say they are.
Anything else, accepted rules and etiquette are in order.

 

[newGuy12]

I suppose one of the true marks of a student is what he does when the instructor is not around and he doesn't have to obey. We always followed custom even when not in class.
Much like the military. A soldier will always follow military custom even if the DI is not around out of respect.

I was told about this. This was said to be the difference between respecting the Instructor and fearing the Instructor, and respect is a higher, more persistent mindset.

 

[newGuy12]

If I am by myself, or with another black belt of equal rank that I know well, then the rules can be bent. Especially if it's two black belts who are friends, the rules can be whatever they say they are.
Anything else, accepted rules and etiquette are in order.

Also, some things that I thought were important are NOT. For example, it was our custom at testing to (after warm up exercises) sit right down, with the higher ranking students in the front of the room.

Now, one of the schools in our organization does it the opposite. At testing time, it is reversed, all of the white belts go to the front of the room, and so forth.

So, what I thought was the "normal way" was evidently nothing more than a convention, nothing important about it.

 

[IcemanSK]

With respect to the belt touching the floor, I tell my students practical things. Here's what I mean.

I teach in a church. Many of my students & their parents are people of strong faith, as I am. I don't want to confuse young students that "this do or don't" during class is on the same level as their faith. In other words, I don't want to give the impression that one's belt is a holy object.

I explain that it's tradition to not let their belt touch the ground. Yet, when we do push-ups or sit-ups for example, they are going to touch the ground. I ask them if they think it shows respect to my belt & to the art if I drag my belt on the floor on my way to my bag. I ask if they think a police officer would do that with their uniform or badge. We discuss why they think that it doesn't show respect to do that.

I also tell them that it's tradition to not wash their belts. I tell them the story I was told was that "all your pain & knowledge goes into your belt." I ask them if they think that ACTUALLY happens or if it's a tradition. They usually say it's a tradition. I tell them that we keep that tradition & reassure parents that the belt really don't smell with use. I also say to parents that if there is a stain that needs removing on a belt, remove it.

I think it's important to give practical reasons for things that we do in the dojang.

 

[matt.m]

I suppose it is my chance to drop my .02. Look we never roll sleeves or pant legs. We always "Fix" our dobok turned around out of respect. We wear white on white only. The black belts wear the trim but that is it. There is none of this multi color stuff. I know I am an old timer in my belief system. However, GGM Park always said "In Korea we wear white on white because you cant trust people in black dobok." According to him "The same thing is true of good guys wear white hat and bad guys wear black hat in old American Black and White western."

 

[SageGhost83]

GGM Park always said "In Korea we wear white on white because you cant trust people in black dobok."

What is he like 5 years old or something :lol2:!? That has slippery slope written all over it if you read between the lines . Then again, I have seen far worse things done because of "tradition". Oh well, if it floats his boat and it works for him, then more power to him. My Shotokan sensei said things about people who dress in multi-colored gi's and they weren't exactly politically correct if you know what I mean. I love the guy, but there were a lot things that I didn't agree with concerning his personal philosophies :lol:. It is that old time prejudice, I guess. By the way, I meant no offence to you or your GGM.

 

[Kacey]

There is nothing wrong with tradition; I keep many of the same traditions as Iceman myself. Just because a tradition is started for a reason you don't agree with, or a reason that has been forgotten, does not mean that new meanings cannot be found, nor does it mean that the tradition is meaningless. An example:

The new bride is making her first big dinner for her new husband, and tries her hand at her mother's roast recipe, cutting the ends off the roast the way her mother always did. Hubby thinks the meal is delicious, but says "Why do you cut the off ends - that's the best part!" She answers "That's the way my mother always made it."

The next week, the bride is visiting her mother, and asks why she always cut the ends off the roast; her mother's answer is the same as her own: "That's the way my mother always made it."

So off they go to visit Grandma, to ask her why she always cut the ends off the roast. Grandma's answer: "Because that's the only way it would fit in my roasting pan!"
​

My point is, as I said above, that traditions can exist for many reasons. If it is important to you to maintain those traditions for their own sake, or to find new interpretations so that the traditions make sense to you - do it! If not, then don't.

As far as why we maintain those traditions - as an example, we wear all white uniforms, except for black trim for black belts, to maintain a uniformity of appearance. For many people, especially those just beginning, this uniformity helps set the tone of class - it is a time apart from other things, and the visual reminder of everyone wearing white helps with the mindset of setting aside the concerns of the day to concentrate on learning. For other people, it makes no difference - but it does no harm. The trim helps students - again, especially new students - to identify those who have the greatest rank (and, presumably, the greatest knowledge) who can help them most readily.

As far as turning away to adjust your uniform - it is on a par with turning away when you suddenly realize you need to zip your pants; it is a courtesy.

Again, if you don't see a need to follow such traditions, that's what works for you - to each his (or her) own. For me, following these and other traditions works, and therefore I will continue to do so.

 

[SageGhost83]

I am with you on that one, Kacey. I personally love to stick with tradition even though I get criticized a lot for it by my other buddies in the martial arts. Despite all of the reasons to not follow it, I believe that it lends something extra to the practice, it gives it a sense of not just being a method of fighting, but even moreso a way of life. Sure, we traditionalists understand that, but the non-traditionalists would be wise to take that into consideration instead of just cracking wise on us . Could I practice without the traditional trappings and fight just as well? Sure! However, I feel that I would be missing out on something deeper - perhaps a spiritual or cultural experience or something. Of course, if one is not looking for that deeper something through martial arts, then I respect that too and there is nothing wrong with that.

 

[IcemanSK]

I am with you on that one, Kacey. I personally love to stick with tradition even though I get criticized a lot for it by my other buddies in the martial arts. Despite all of the reasons to not follow it, I believe that it lends something extra to the practice, it gives it a sense of not just being a method of fighting, but even moreso a way of life. Sure, we traditionalists understand that, but the non-traditionalists would be wise to take that into consideration instead of just cracking wise on us . Could I practice without the traditional trappings and fight just as well? Sure! However, I feel that I would be missing out on something deeper - perhaps a spiritual or cultural experience or something. Of course, if one is not looking for that deeper something through martial arts, then I respect that too and there is nothing wrong with that.

My buddy that is the #2 man in his system of karate has a unique take on the tradition & even formality of MA. He tells his students that the reason that we have formality is simply to get things done in a class setting. Otherwise, we wouldn't get far. Looking at MA or any tye of class setting, this is true at it's base. All MA (even MMA & JKD) have some sorts of traditions, formality & structure simply to get things done. No matter how "untraditional" a program's intent, it has it's traditions.