Traditional forms

[Tez3]

Well that's the thing. I don't substantively see any stances have been removed, when you compare Shotokan kata to TSD hyung. The Koreans do that foot-raised thing on their back stance, almost so it functions like a cat stance, but the embryonic purpose of zenkutsu-dachi, kokutsu-dachi, and kiba-dachi are all there in the beginner forms.

If you're referring to practicing forms with purpose, I'd agree that Wado and Tang Soo Do people probably have very different ideas about what the kata is teaching. Any points made about complexity lost or gained probably fall into this bucket rather than the pure physical choreography itself, as different though valid interpretations can be drawn from the Korean alterations if one is so minded.

I don't know Shotokan katas though so I'm afraid I can't compare them, (perhaps Shotokan have also taken them out?) Mine are Wado Ryu. The stances taken out of TSD are Nekiashi, Sanchin, Seishan, Naihanchi, Zenkutsu, Chidora, Cyakuzuki and Kokutsu. those are just off the top of my head. I know we have far more stances as a whole in Wado than most other styles.

 

[reeskm]

I find the TSD forms very much simplified from the Wado Ryu ones. I know them both very well and much prefer the Wado ones I'm afraid. It's as if someone has taken all the harder bits out to make up the TSD ones which to my mind is a shame.

Did I read too far into this comment you made?

Also, I think the Wado syllabus must have been changed since the early days.
But, it's still in your syllabus. Your syllabus has "sanbon kumite". In korean, we call this "sam soo sik daeryun". However, I did notice your syllabus does not seem to have "ippon kumite" or "ill soo sik daeryun".

Juniors grading for 2nd Dan may choose as well only one Ohyo Gumite, Kihon Gumite, Kata, and Tanto Dori.

Also, I'm pleased to see the mention of Tanto Dori in your syllabus. This is the knife sets I was referring to before. Also, incredibly, we require 2nd dan candidates in our school to demonstrate self defense against a knife. It's good to see things don't change that much!

 

[Tez3]

Did I read too far into this comment you made?

Also, I think the Wado syllabus must have been changed since the early days.
But, it's still in your syllabus. Your syllabus has "sanbon kumite". In korean, we call this "sam soo sik daeryun". However, I did notice your syllabus does not seem to have "ippon kumite" or "ill soo sik daeryun".

Juniors grading for 2nd Dan may choose as well only one Ohyo Gumite, Kihon Gumite, Kata, and Tanto Dori.

Also, I'm pleased to see the mention of Tanto Dori in your syllabus. This is the knife sets I was referring to before. Also, incredibly, we require 2nd dan candidates in our school to demonstrate self defense against a knife. It's good to see things don't change that much!

Sorry, I think perhaps I should have said 'more difficult and varied' bits rather than harder which has a different meaning in martial arts from difficult. We have never done one and three step in our Wado. I've only ever done it in TSD. We don't do Tanto Dori either.
Things do change in Wado Ryu because Ohtsuka Sensei said nothing is written in stone and it changes, people do feel free to change things. I think too that things may be different because when Ohtsuka Sensei stood down as the head of Wado Ryu there was a big split in UK Wado leading to three separate organisations each with their own views.
The syllabus I quoted is a typical one for here but not necessarily what everyone does, we do the Ohyo Gumite, sets of attacks and defences ( not three step though) and we do free sparring. Kata of course but no weapons.

 

[reeskm]

OK! Well thanks for the info Tez3.

I see what you are saying - Hwang Kee also said he never wanted things to be set in stone and that the art should evolve. I think you and I both know that splits in organizations and changes to curriculum are nothing new at all and pretty universal!

 

[Runs With Fire]

No, you're not the only one. You can imagine yourself as a rider on horseback, with a pole arm or sword in one hand. Especially the 3rd (Sam Dan) Naihanchi Hyung.

On the topic of Na Hanji, I am convinced it was a weapons form or else it was designed to develop movement patterns for a heavy, single-handed weapon such as an axe, flail, mace, or heavy sword.
If indeed it was either originally preformed on horseback, or at least to mimic it so as to possibly prepare trainees to function on a horse before actually mounting, it makes perfect sense to run through it open handed; So that your body can learn the motions. dismounted, there isn't room to swing a weapon the same way; The
I'm no cowboy but I have spent a fair amount of time on horses. the footwork is essentially the same as riding. A friend of mine is a ridding instructor. She also studies Tung Soo Do and agrees on the horseback theory.

 

[Runs With Fire]

* Open to interpretation

 

[K-man]

Well if Naihanchi was designed to fight on horseback I'd love to see how that works with a predetermined response.

It depends on what you understand kata to be but you could be sure there wouldn't be a lot of karateka riding around Shuri on horses when it was being taught by Matsumura back in the 1850s.

 

[Tez3]

Absolutely no way Naihanchi is for weapons or horse riding ( whatever the stance) why would it be? If it were for practicing on horseback then one would be on a horse! I spent a lot of time riding, always have done and there's no way that the footwork is the same as riding, either European style or Japanese and it certainly wouldn't be American west style. I think it's being over imaginative and wanting to see something in it that's not there, nice try though.
Naihanchi - Karate s Most Deadly Kata Iain Abernethy

 

[Runs With Fire]

could be