Tournament Fighters

[Robbo]

I've heard so many disparaging remarks about point fighters on this and other forums I thought I'd throw out a challenge. I was asked in my BB exam whether I thought point fighters were touchy feely and generally not worth worrying about.

I replied that these fighters were to be respected and that you had to take into consideration that they could concievably drop you with one shot.

The training involved to compete at a BB level these days is quite impressive, these people need to be equally good with both hands and feet, they have combinations that WORK, they work them hard, just because their targets are 'legal' wouldn't make the techniques hurt any less, they constantly spar working on timing and speed, just because they touch doesn't mean they couldn't go thru you if they wanted. Those who have fought in a BB division know the kind of power that these fighters posses.

Let's not try to go into what training is better and who would beat who I just want to investigate why point fighting has such a bad rep. I personally respect them and wish I had half of the speed and skill of the top fighters.

What do you think?

Thanks,
Rob

 

[tonbo]

I think they get the bad rap because of the fact that they are generally using gear (padding), and that it is all point based--i.e., it is who can get to who faster, or which strike is seen by what judge. It can also be seen as "wimpy", since people are just playing glorified tag.

I would agree with you, though. We use gear at our school when we spar, but I would hardly classify it as "wimpy" contact. Even in our point sparring matches, we go pretty rough sometimes, and just because the padding is there doesn't mean that any strike is a love tap....

Sounds a lot like the argument is along the "Real men wouldn't use sparring gear" kinda argument.

As usual, just my 2 cents' worth.

Peace--

 

[Robbo]

My intent is not to find out if you hit harder with sparring gear on in your school, I think that at BB level in tournaments these people have good technique and the only reason they are touching is that is what is allowed by the rules. If you can just touch rather that hit you can conserve energy for the next match. My point is that people perceive these fighters as flippy-dippy kickers and punchers and I think for the most part that is a unfair accusation.

Thanks,
Rob

 

[AvPKenpo]

I think Tonbo is on the right track. People may say "oh, your a point fighter, when are you going to grow up and fight for real". Now I am NOT saying that most point fighters can't fight, its just the perception from other Martial Artists.

Michael

 

[tonbo]

Sorry, I didn't mean to interject anything personal in my response, and I hope you didn't take it that way.

You are correct that point competitors are often seen as being ineffective and as only playing tag. My point was that I think that perception is what it is due to the sparring equipment.

I have seen people spar with no equipment as well, pulling their strikes and kicks. I don't think that is much different, as the argument against that would be that you are "training to miss your opponent."

Both of those arguments are false, as you have pointed out: If you pull a strike, or make contact with gear, you are still doing that out of a conscious effort--and arguably with better control. If you can pull it, then you can also *not* pull it, and put the full force or distance behind it, and cause damage.

People who denigrate point sparring do so because they see pads or other safety measures. These kind of people are the ones that believe that only spilled blood will determine a "true" winner. Let 'em. I'd rather walk away with a bruise on my face and/or ego than not walk at all.

Peace--

 

[Rainman]

Tourney fighters can be very skilled at freestyle. The really good ones don't train to stop. Good ones are adept at bobbing, weaving, rolling, slipping and hitting on the move. That includes going backwards and attacking from odd angles. Pads- no pads who cares, some of them train for the street that way as well. All kinds of sparring should be looked at- just because half the people out there you see could be considered "would be" punching bags be carefull not to discount the others. Some people who train for the point tournies are very capable of dominating.

:asian:

 

[Klondike93]

Question: Does 4oz of padding on your hands or feet really protect the other person that much?

I don't think it really does. Yes it's better than bare knuckle but still not much padding.

I think one reason they get the bad press is the points that are called at tournaments. They do call some real crap that would never do any real damage to anyone.

:asian:

 

[brianhunter]

I can't speak for you guys but I can speak from my perception of "point" fighting. I have fought in tourneys for points and yes I do think it is unrealistic......I view it like this because


1) Nobody is going to stop fighting on the street when someone yells "break"

2) Some fighters NOT ALL develop one quick strike or kick that gets the point but it is a) uneffective and b) leaving them wide open (but hey they know the "break!" is coming after they throw it.)

3) 99.9 percent of tourneys dont allow groin or face shots...how many kenpo tech do we learn with these in them? it would be easier to count how many DONT have them.

4) Its a sport and a great training tool for speed and formulating ideas but in my opinion i dont think it compares to a real fight...its more of a match in a sport

I guess I wouldnt mind if alot more tourneys did continuous sparring or full contact but with liability and the times those days are gone. Those are my feelings on it and alot of talented guys enjoy it and theres nothing wrong with that (I spar at tourneys too i just long for something more I guess)

 

[Klondike93]

Originally posted by brianhunter

I can't speak for you guys but I can speak from my perception of "point" fighting. I have fought in tourneys for points and yes I do think it is unrealistic......I view it like this because


1) Nobody is going to stop fighting on the street when someone yells "break"

2) Some fighters NOT ALL develop one quick strike or kick that gets the point but it is a) uneffective and b) leaving them wide open (but hey they know the "break!" is coming after they throw it.)

3) 99.9 percent of tourneys dont allow groin or face shots...how many kenpo tech do we learn with these in them? it would be easier to count how many DONT have them.

4) Its a sport and a great training tool for speed and formulating ideas but in my opinion i dont think it compares to a real fight...its more of a match in a sport

I guess I wouldnt mind if alot more tourneys did continuous sparring or full contact but with liability and the times those days are gone. Those are my feelings on it and alot of talented guys enjoy it and theres nothing wrong with that (I spar at tourneys too i just long for something more I guess)

1. Duh :shrug:

2. The school I teach at we teach them to keep going till someone yells break, point etc or your pulled off the opponenet.

3. All the open tournaments in Colorado allow face and groin in adult divisions intermediate and up.

4. It is a sport and can't compare to a real fight. But you are learning how to get hit or not hit.

Here in Colorado all the open tournaments used to have semi-contact continous sparring. Then the newly formed boxing commision stepped in and wanted them to pay 5,000 dollars per tournament for a boxing license. So that has gone the way of the dodo bird (extinct).

:asian:

 

[Deathtrap101]

I am a "Point Fighter" but i do see it as unrealistic and more of a sport(and thats what it is) then anything. I just consider it training in control, few martial artists these days can control there kicks and fists like that, stop it at 2 inches, or 3 inches, just touch or a nudge.

I am only a yellow belt and only 9 months of training and have fought in only 2 tournaments, both for points, but without head gear of pads on the boddie, just a cup,mouthgaurd and gloves. Speaking from my point of view, dont consider point fighters weaker fighters, just more controlled. I train in controlling my punches to making them stop where and when i want them too, but that doesnt mean i can't throw a good hard *painfull* punch. I would love to get into a full contact tourny, i just gota find one around here . Just my opinion.

 

[brianhunter]

> 3. All the open tournaments in Colorado allow face and groin in > adult divisions intermediate and up.

hey colorado is next door to KS makes me think itd be worth a road trip

 

[Rainman]

Originally posted by Klondike93

Question: Does 4oz of padding on your hands or feet really protect the other person that much?

I don't think it really does. Yes it's better than bare knuckle but still not much padding.

I think one reason they get the bad press is the points that are called at tournaments. They do call some real crap that would never do any real damage to anyone.

:asian:

That is a pretty good observation- about padding. Protection of natural weapons. Nothing can protect from a penetrating strike it (at best) spreads the contact point or patch.

I agree most are not good- it is that small minority you should pay close attention to.

:asian:

 

[Klondike93]

Dave Copock, a kenpo instructor in Colorado Springs, is having one saturday.

Short notice and a long drive from where your at



:asian:

 

[Hollywood1340]

Thought I would throw my thoughts out on the issue. Every art has it's place. For me personally, my Hapkido and Taekwondo are my standing techniques, my Judo is transition, and it's jujitsu from there. It's easy as a martial artist to be just a karateka, kenpoist, taekata, or judoka. I lurk on several martial message boards, and see "Kenpo is a slap art, utterly worthless" or "TKD, what a joke". It's very easy to say that from the sidelines. I know I've been guilty of it at one time or another.
Then you hang around a kenpo school and you FEEL the way those "slaps" leave you utterly helpless. Or receive a side-kick from a TKD 5th dan that sends you across the dojang. This is it kiddies!
My judo instructor, a 4th Dan was explaining to me how sport develops an athlete. Through the application of sport to any discipline you develop speed, timing, and strength. These are essential not just in the ring, but in the "real world" as well. And that is where sport has it's place.
It's so often I find that people are of one mind set or the other. I.E. It's either a martial art or crap, or it's a martial sport or crap. Why not differentiate between the two and give them their rightful place?
Take TKD for instance. TKD is a very competetive and sometimes brutal sport. Five kicks in mid air, all landing at full power takes years of dedicated training and disciplined regime common to all martial endeavors, no matter what they may be. The prowess and physical condition of these athletes attest to this regime. Who is anybody to say they are "wimps?" I speak from experience when I say "Those who look down on TKD sparring, have never truly TKD sparred"
On the other foot (pun intended) you have self-defensive arts, Hapkido, Ken(m)po, Aikido. I'm no great authority on these, but they to the same extent have dedicated training and a disciplined regime as well. I'll take my hat off to just about any member of a martial art any day, because I belive it is not my place to say otherwise.
I guess my point is learn about other arts, and understand the place they occupy. It may not be the place you occupy in the martial scheme of things, but it's important none the less.

 

[Goldendragon7]

The person makes the Art not the reverse. There are great people of all systems.

I have been a tournament fighter and a full contact fighter. Some can transition better than others some play one game better than the other, the bottom line here is that it all depends on the individual.

An old but well respected friend the Late Dimetris Havanas was an awesome tournament fighter...... but was also a fearless fighter in the ring and even crazier in the street. So it all depends on the mindset of the individual and the training you use.

I can say with equal conviction that I know of some national champions in tournament point competition that couldn't fight their way out of wet paper bags....... so you decide.

:asian:

 

[Seig]

and then one created Tae Bo. Seriously, Mr. Blanks was an awesome tourny fighter, not so hot at full contact

 

[Goldendragon7]

but I wouldn't mind him at my back in the street......