Toes pointing inward

Discussion in 'Wing Chun' started by callMeHawkEye, Dec 28, 2017.

  1. callMeHawkEye

    callMeHawkEye White Belt

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    Hello folks. I just had an intro lesson today on wing chun and they had me do the I guess base stance. I forgot what it's called lol. Why is the stance so pigeon toed with feet pointing inwards? I feel my Kua (Chinese for inner thigh and hips/dantoen area) kinda close when the feet turn inwards like that.
    And I am trying to turn my pelvis bit to keep the back straight and aligned. How are you supposed to generate the power from dantoen and such when you close the Kua like that?

    Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk
     
  2. geezer

    geezer Grandmaster

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    Some WC branches emphasize the internal rotation of the legs more than others. I prefer a milder internal rotation, partly because I'm quite duck-footed so rotating my toes inwards means my knees are extremely torqued inwards! Regardless, if this was your first lesson, work on getting the structure right. Power should not even be a concern at this point. Good luck in your training! :)

    BTW what branch or lineage of Wing Chun are you training?
     
  3. JR 137

    JR 137 Senior Master

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    Is this the stance you’re referring to?
    905846FF-2E63-4E68-BA15-5A90D28222E9.jpeg
    I believe it’s used in many CMA styles as well as karate. Karate calls it Sanchin stance, named after the kata Sanchin. Some styles of karate do quite a bit of kihon (basics) from the stance. I’d imagine CMAs do as well.

    It’s a very rooted stance. People can definitely generate quite a bit of power from it. It takes time though. As Geezer said, don’t worry about generating power yet, work on getting comfortable in the stance. It’s an awkward stance at first, but if your teacher is teaching you right, it should grow on you.
     
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  4. KPM

    KPM Senior Master

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    The fact that you know what the "Kua" actually is and that you are wondering how to generate power from a "closed Kua" tells me that you likely have studied something prior to Wing Chun! So I will speak in a way I wouldn't normally to a beginner.

    Tilting the pelvis forward to flatten the lower back and the holding that position generates a "locked Kua." In my Wing Chun we keep a "floating Kua" to help transmit momentum up the spine in a "wave-like" fashion. We think of the Kua like the handle of a whip, the spine like the body of a whip, and the fist like the "popper" at the end of the whip. So the Kua has to be able to move. Turning the feet/knees in produces a "closed Kua" but not a "locked Kua." This helps to keep the overall structure compact and helps keep the force you generate focused. Sometimes it is exaggerated at the beginning or when training to help develop the muscle strength and muscle memory to be able to do it naturally. In application it should still be there, just not as extreme. The part that kills good power generation from the Kua is that tilt of the pelvis to flatten the lower back. But it is a common feature of some Wing Chun lineages.
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2017
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  5. MI_martialist

    MI_martialist Purple Belt

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    How about a picture?
     
  6. DanT

    DanT Black Belt

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    The stance is called "Yee Jee Kim Yeung Ma" or simply "Kim Yeung Ma". The translation is "Character Two Goat Clamping Stance, or the shortened version, "Goat Clamping Stance".

    The feet should NOT be turned in more than 15 degrees. Constant turning in of the feet more than 15 degrees puts a tremendous amount of strain on the Knees.

    The feet are SLIGHTLY turned in to help you find your centre of gravity, and to help you root your stance. The use of this stance in combat is minimal. However, the principals of the stance are applied to combat (maintaining balance, keeping your back straight, even distribution of weight between your legs, etc.)
     
  7. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    This stance has at least 3 weakness. Your opponent can

    - sweep your exposed heel.
    - apply low side kick behind your knee,
    - double legs on you since both of your legs are close to each other.


    [​IMG]

    You should use this stance for offense (build leg bridge) instead of for defense.

    From general MA point of view, you can use "foot inward stance" to bite your shin bone on the inside of your opponent's leg. When you press your knee down, you can bend your opponent's knee side way and collapse his structure. The closer that your lower leg can be bent to your foot, the more pressure that you can apply on your opponent's leg.

    It's also the initial step for you to train "foot sweep".

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2017
  8. wckf92

    wckf92 Master Black Belt

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    who are you asking?
     
  9. MI_martialist

    MI_martialist Purple Belt

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    Whomever may have pictures of proper execution of the base.

     
  10. Danny T

    Danny T Senior Master

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    Hmm...per the picture: "Squeeze thighs together"
    For us; not so much. For most the knees follow the toes when pointed inward, straight, or outward. When in the YJKYM stance proper, simply bending the knees will bring the thighs toward each other naturally. No need to Squeeze them which will put a side load on the knees distorting the natural bending structure of the knee.

    For us this stance is for fundamental training and is transitioned through and not something we actually fight in. Particular aspects of the structure are utilized when warranted not a stance to attempt to fight in.

    Agree with the "...can use "foot inward stance" to bite your shin bone on the inside of your opponent's leg. When you press your knee down, you can bend your opponent's knee side way and collapse his structure. The closer that your lower leg can be bent to your foot, the more pressure that you can apply on your opponent's leg."
    Other than the pressing the knee down. With the foot turned inward and shin bone on the leg simply pressing the knee forward will collapse his structure allowing a foot sweep or takedown.
     
  11. geezer

    geezer Grandmaster

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    Last edited: Dec 30, 2017
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  12. geezer

    geezer Grandmaster

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  13. callMeHawkEye

    callMeHawkEye White Belt

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    Hi. The teacher was from the cheung bo and yuen Kay san lineage.
    And the stance I was shown the first class was called Yee Jee Kim Yeung Ma


    Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk
     
  14. geezer

    geezer Grandmaster

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    OK, that roughly translates to "Character 2 Goat riding stance". The character for 2 in Chinese (yee gee) is a short line over a long line:
    upload_2017-12-30_14-34-57.png
    Now imagine the short line connecting your toes, and the long line connecting your heels making your stance "pigeon-toed", and additionally, the short line linking your knees and the longer line connecting your feet giveing you that "knock-kneed" position and you have the general idea.

    Now as far as the "goat riding" or "goat clamping stance" part (kim yeung ma) ...well check the link of the guy sheering a sheep labeled Wing Chun on the farm in my post above. Seriously. That's where the name comes from! ...And, IMO that's only because the Southern Chinese of a couple centuries back didn't ski. :p
     

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  15. callMeHawkEye

    callMeHawkEye White Belt

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    Hi kpm. Thank you for the info. I kind of come from a taiji background.
    What do you mean by "floating Kua"? Do you have any like books lectures or articles etc more on the matter?
    In taiji a core part of ones power is from using ones Kua. I do not quite understand the distinction between floating and locked Kua. I do understand like how one may have power from transitioning between open and closed Kua.
    Is it more along the lines similar to a hip thrust?

    Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk
     
  16. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

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    Based on KPM's comment that the feet shouldn't be more than 15 degrees in, the first two weaknesses you list seem overemphasized in the first picture.

    WC folks, is there a consensus on how far in the feet would be? And how about those outside WC who use a similar stance?
     
  17. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

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    If I understand correctly, a "locked Kua" means the pelvis is locked into place - little/no movement at the hips/lower back. When I flatten the lower back like he mentioned, I can feel the pelvis lock at the hip joints.
     
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  18. wckf92

    wckf92 Master Black Belt

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    My feet and knees are no where close to the first picture in KFW's post. If that is how most WC people do their YJKYM; then I guess mine is an anomoly hahaha. My feet are more straight, and my lower half looks and feels more natural. No undue stress on the knees, and I definitely do NOT squeeze the thighs inward. That just seems weird. :)
     
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  19. KPM

    KPM Senior Master

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    Most of that is for training purposes only. And if Hawkeye is now part of a Yuen Kay Shan lineage, they do pull the knees and toes in at an extreme compared to most everyone else I have seen. I've seen people in that lineage talk about the spacing and "inward squeeze" being such that it is like you are holding a tennis ball or baseball between your knees! But then when they move in free-flow they look like most everyone else.
     
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  20. KPM

    KPM Senior Master

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    A "floating Kua" means that it is relaxed and flexible. You can "tuck under" by tilting the pelvis when necessary, but it isn't held in this position constantly. That is what I mean by "locked." You want to avoid both extremes....having your butt sticking out, and flattening your lower back so much that you are practically leaning backwards. You want to feel like you are in a balanced and relaxed position. Using the Kua to generate power is like "hitting with the hips." I can lay my palm on my dummy and literally "rock" the dummy without lifting my hand by using my hips alone. Think of opening and closing the Kua as using the Kua in the horizontal plane. What I'm talking about is using the Kua in the vertical plane. Hope that makes sense!
     

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