To Shindo Quest Home Study

[Enson]

Ok, I will give you his name if he ok's it. Additionally, if you look at some other posts on here, some other people have stated simialr stories, so Its not just one guy.

oh i know i've looked around and did a search when i first joined. but there is something i've learned in my short time here. if its not written on paper/or seen on video... it never happened. also some of those post 2 yrs ago don't really count because there wasn't really anyone else on here with different view. (i.e. gmunoz, shiro, turtle, genin andrew, etc.) it was just you and jaybell. although you guys are very saavy in the arts lets here from the hayes ryu practicioners.

 

[Deaf]

At the 2002 TaiKai One of Mr. Hayes Toshindo asst. Instuctors took her godan test given by Mr. Hatsumi You can see her demo with the other new godans.

That was Diana Walker. The funny thing about it...she nor her hubby Steve Pavolvic (sp?) wore their quest center gi's or their belts!

Things that make you go...hmmmm!

 

[Deaf]

oh i know i've looked around and did a search when i first joined. but there is something i've learned in my short time here. if its not written on paper/or seen on video... it never happened. also some of those post 2 yrs ago don't really count because there wasn't really anyone else on here with different view. (i.e. gmunoz, shiro, turtle, genin andrew, etc.) it was just you and jaybell. although you guys are very saavy in the arts lets here from the hayes ryu practicioners.

I will verify Techno's BB story about the TKD practioneers because I was there and that was the turning point for me. The seminars were basically to get people to learn how to teach and operate a quest center. The basic Toshindo cirriculum was taught and then at the festival these TKD practioneers were awarded higher rank than myself and others who have busted their asses off for their rank and for Hayes for well over 2 years! And the damning thing is that the TKD practioneers really couldn't do the techniques properly, they actually used their TKD to finish off the techniques.

So just to let you know, it isn't some heresay story or rumor!

~Deaf~

 

[Enson]

well... there you go! and that does make you go hmmmmm....

 

[Cryozombie]

And again...

All I am saying by this is Blending a little Ninjutsu and Hapkido, or Blending a little Ninjutsu and Taekwondo... or hell... Ninjutsu and Ballet for that matter... does not make it Ninjutsu any more than Being an Engineer designing go karts and then becoming a Jeep certified mechanic makes you a Jeep Engineer.

You may be a great artist, you may be an effective fighter, hell your art may be phenominal... but its a different art.

 

[shiro]

I can not speak of things that have happen before I came on the scen If those things happen I am sorry you trained Your butt off and got caught up in the middle of the change, I hope You found the school that fits who you are now(DEAF).
From what I have seen There are people Who try to avoid the conflict of Hayes/Bujinkan People To me there is no conflict, I am proud to be a student Of In my opinion the best Ninjutsu Instructor You can Have,Mr.Hayes (Nothing against anyone else.) And I refuse to hide that fact no matter were I am or who I talk to.
And if someone does not like me because of that well take a guess
Example. 2003 TaiKai A Bujinkan Instructor was working with Me a few others from a different school And I could tell He treated me different from the others.(He knew I train with Mr.Hayes) Anyway another Bujinkan BB came by and said something about the other Students too The first Instuctors Come back was "With those patches they are not going to get any help(American Bujinkan Dojo patch). Why punish a worthy student because You don"t agree with their Instructor or Org? Was't we all Bujinkan? and if they didn't like the Orgs Instuctor and thought they were no good What right does He have to judge Isn't that up to Mr. Hatsumi?

 

[Enson]

And again...

Being an Engineer designing go karts and then becoming a Jeep certified mechanic makes you a Jeep Engineer.

You may be a great artist, you may be an effective fighter, hell your art may be phenominal... but its a different art.

let me ask you a question... if you eat corn flakes plain or add some sugar... heck you can even add honey... aren't you still eating corn flakes?

sounds like "a glass half empty" mentality.

 

[Cryozombie]

let me ask you a question... if you eat corn flakes plain or add some sugar... heck you can even add honey... aren't you still eating corn flakes?

sounds like "a glass half empty" mentality.

Yes... You are... What you are NOT eating by adding Honey is "Honey Bunches of Oats"

You see? Adding a LITTLE (say, 6 months worth, at the outside) Ninjutsu to Taekwondo does not make TaeKwonDo suddenly become Ninjutsu any more than adding a little honey to cornflakes makes it magically Honeybunches of oats.

But thats why its now Toshindo, not Ninjutsu, eh? Even by Hayes own admission, (found here: http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=256103&postcount=30 ) its not Ninjutsu, and when asked what Hatsumi's "involvement" in Toshindo is, he only states that its a Tribute to Hatsumi, and never actually states that Hatsumi is in any way involved in Toshindo except for having trained Hayes.

I don't even know why I am continuing to argue the point... I dont really care one way or the other... except for the fact that some Bujinkan students and instructors state "Yep I was there, Hatsumi said Toshindo is not acceptable" all the Hayes students have to chime in about how dumb us Bujinkan people are...

 

[Cryozombie]

Here... Let me put it like this:

Regardless of Hayes past... According to what we have been told by people present with Hatsumi *THIS YEAR* The direction he has taken his art is different from the direction Hatsumi is going with it now.

If you study Toshindo, and show up for a Bujinkan event and are not allowed to participate, after announcing you are Toshindo, that is the perogative of Hatsumi-sensei and his representatives. If He says, "The art you study is not my art" then that is the end of it.

No amount of denial on the part of the people studying Toshindo will change that.

And, folks, thats not a Bujinkan thing... that would be the fact in any art. It doesnt decrease your skill level or knowlage... (And for the record, if you look at my posts, I have NEVER said Mr. Hayes has poor Taijutsu or is bad at what he does... I said I disapproved of the atmosphere of the Shadows of Iga school I attended, and the direction I see him taking the art now... as far as the commercial aspects go.) it just means you are no longer affiliated with said organization.

If you are fired from your chefs job at "Chez Paris"... it does not mean you are not a chef, just no longer a "Chez Paris" chef.

If you stop studying Ninjutsu, and start Studying Toshindo, you are a Toshindo Practitioner, not a Ninjutsu practitioner.

 

[Enson]

Yes... You are... What you are NOT eating by adding Honey is "Honey Bunches of Oats"

You see? Adding a LITTLE (say, 6 months worth, at the outside) Ninjutsu to Taekwondo does not make TaeKwonDo suddenly become Ninjutsu any more than adding a little honey to cornflakes makes it magically Honeybunches of oats.

I don't even know why I am continuing to argue the point... I dont really care one way or the other... except for the fact that some Bujinkan students and instructors state "Yep I was there, Hatsumi said Toshindo is not acceptable" all the Hayes students have to chime in about how dumb us Bujinkan people are...

now your getting me hungry and i'm on a low carb diet! hee hee!

what i'm saying is an art can be founded in "ninjutsu/corn flakes" and the master/instructor/whatever can add some effective "kicks/bananas", "techniques/strawberries", etc. it just makes it a glorified version of "ninjutsu/cornflakes". call it modern call it non-traditional... both would probably be correct.

it personally doesn't effect me either way. but, if what hayes does is a modern version of ninjutsu, and hatsumi allows him to live... then so be it. the trick is to realize not how to get out of the box... just that there is no box! hatsumi is not god, or the last living ninjutsu practicioner. if that was the case no one could ever claim to practice ninjutsu. hayes does what he thinks is right. he admits it is non traditional. but he also states that he was wrong for being so close minded in the past (when he used to trash bussey for doing his own thing with ninjutsu).

 

[gmunoz]

This is a quote from the co-authored book between Hayes sensei and Dr. Hatsumi:

"However, the possibility of people confusing freedom fighter ninja anscestors with "the dark side of the force" is now even more politically awkward in light of inevitably unfortunate comparisons with terrorist murders of U.S. civilians by killers claiming to be religiously inspired "holy warriors" in the 21st century.

We knew this was coming, sadly enough. That is why back in the 1990's Masaaki Hatsumi moved to divert attention away from our ninja background by changing the techniques and name to what he calls budo taijutsu. For the same reason, I chose to refer to my SKH Quest Center martial art as To-Shin Do when I founded my schools in the mid-1990s."

BOTH Hatsumi and Hayes sensei have made alterations to their styles. They are both ninjutsu - just with different target audiences, different targeted perils. Both men have decided to make adjustments. There are still adjustments being made to both! We've already been over the "ever-evolving" topic. It is all ninjutsu.

 

[gmunoz]

I completely agree with you Enson.

 

[shiro]

I think some of You are missing what I have been saying.
Yes Mr.Hayes has ToshinDo which is His Art based on His Ideas and what He thinks will help people today.
But!!!
For the people who want to study what he learned from Mr. Hatsumi He has classes for that too.
Some people in ToshinDo will not learn any classical Part of the art until the are Shodan.
Others just train in the Classical art. (9 Ryu Ha)
Some do both.
Bottom line Mr. Hayes still teaches what He learned from Mr. Hatsumi and gives out rank from Mr. Hatsumi!
I hope that clears it up some. It does not matter if Mr. Hayes teaches ToShin Do He still offers Classical too that is why I do not see what is all the fuss is about. And if Mr. Hatsumi bans Mr. Hayes and His students Then I feel He has made a bad call. I fill there might be people close to him that might sway Him that way. I don't see what Mr. Hayes is doing wrong as long as He offers both. A lot of Bujinkan Dojos put there owen spin on the art. As far as the money part At the TaiKai It was like going down the sunset strip. Everyone had something to sell All The Big Names.
Thanks

 

[Shogun]

Lets just say this:


Nevermind

 

[Cryozombie]

Lets just say this:


Nevermind

Yeah. I second that.

Sorry guys.

 

[Kreth]

The turning point for me was when Hayes transmuted his Marishi Kai Instructor's Guild into the beginnings of Quest, and required a $10k franchise fee from those who wanted to participate. In the same newsletter, he insinuated that if you weren't willing to fork over the cash, then you were really just a hobbyist.

Jeff

 

[shiro]

Let me say again that I can not speak on things that happen before I was on the scene. I am sorry if You feel like Mr.Hayes did something wrong to You and all the other people caught up in the change to His Quest Centers. But I did Not think It was right to attack Me on another thread because You thought I put Mr. Hatsumi Up to Your! god, Which My only intent( I never used the word Jesus) was to say I thought He was a great Man! And did not think he would attack someone from what I can tell thinks alot of Him,And carrys on His teachings.
Thank You

 

[Enson]

i realize some could have issues for how things were done in the past. but things could change. people can sometimes change. if what hayes did in the past was wrong... well i guess thats what he felt he had to do. but i understand what shiro is saying. he is only speaking of what is going on now.
peace

 

[shiro]

Thank You Enson.
I have tried not to attack anyone. I consider myself a bujinkan Student A long distance student of Mr. Hatsumi And proud to be a student of Mr. Hayes.
I feel if You are studying with Mr. Hatsumi Great!(wish I could) If You are studying with another Instructor that learned from Mr. Hatsumi Great! I myself consider myself Very! lucky to be able to be taught the classical Ryu-Ha by Mr. Hayes. Even the people Who can only train by Video/DvD because of what ever reason Good for them no matter we are all streams from the same rich source.
Good well towards all.
Those who are not against us are for us.
Bujinkan Brotherhood? Do You think it could really ever happen or are We doomed to be like all the other orgs pointing fingers and holding on to hurt feelings.
Imagine.

 

[gmunoz]

As a MA practitioner that is fairly new in this thing, I have become sort of disenchanted with the "my dad is stronger than your dad" comments that are posted with the facad of attempting to declare truth. Most comments seem IMO to, as Shiro has mentioned, been to point fingers. I agree with you Shiro and I do appreciate your posts. I think that however someone is priveleged to be able to have access the teachings of Takamatsu and Dr. Hatsumi is great. Again, I reiterate, 'however' one has the privelege of accessing their teachings. Traditional dojo, Long distance learning, Internet, however... There are pros and cons obviously to all aspects. Unfortunately, some can't attend a traditional dojo for cost or geographic reasons.

In my scenario, I have no other access to the my preferred style other than long distance learning. Perhaps one day there will be and I will definitely consider that as an option. This thread, as it is entitled, refers to my situation and for me, To-Shin Do is fits my personality, motives/intentions, and appetite for the arts of which we are all considered. Some choose to squander precious moments of life in their frivolous attempts at "declaring truth" - that is their perogotive. However I find myself blessed to have the teacher I do, and the method in which I am learning; and for that I am thankful. For the haters out there? Well, God bless you - whomever that may be for you...