To-Shin Do Vocals

Discussion in 'SKH/Quest/Toshindo/Shadows of Iga' started by TheStudent, Oct 7, 2009.

  1. TheStudent

    TheStudent Yellow Belt

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    Looking at the demo videos and iTunes stuff, it seems that most of the self-defense techniques involve yelling "Stop it!" instead of a kiai.

    I am guessing that is a legal protection thing. After all, if you mave a few moves and the attacker is on the ground, it could easily look like the defender was the attacker.

    But why does it have to be on each move? A block, shuto, kick and punch in rapid succession make the defender sound spastic."Stop it! Stop it! Stop it! Stop it!"

    Is that because the persons a newto self defense and you're trying to get them to learn to exhale on each technique? Please tell me that once you get the idea you can drop it down to one or two for an entire encounter? Like one at the start of a technique and one if you have to re-engage after the first combination.
     
  2. punisher73

    punisher73 Senior Master

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    It's probably a dual purpose. I've noticed that many beginners forget to exhale when striking. By yelling they are both exhaling and tightening their abdominals which will help them if they recieve a strike. Also, as you mentioned it covers legal aspects.

    It's a training drill and video, so they probably do it a whole lot more in practice and to get the point across on the video. I'm pretty sure that in actual use they wouldn't yell that much.
     
  3. shadycrzy

    shadycrzy White Belt

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    There are specific vocalizations for the first four elemental levels. The earth level defenses use "Stop" as their specific kiai. Water defenses use "Whoa" (since most defenses involve a surprise attack). Fire defenses use "Hey" and Wind defenses use "Easy."

    There's more to it than that but the rest of this thread covered the important points: breathing and legal considerations.
     
  4. TheStudent

    TheStudent Yellow Belt

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    I didn't know there were different vocalizations. All I've seen are (I guess) the earth basics and the advanced stuff where there's no kiai. The different words for the different types of responses make sense (different than I'm used to, but there seems to be a logic to it.)

    So in actual training, testing, and general practice, do you say it with each technique? or is that just an exaggeration on the training tapes to get the point across?
     
  5. shadycrzy

    shadycrzy White Belt

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    Every dojo is different, but for us it's definitely encouraged. No one's going to pull you aside and talk to you if you don't kiai with the right word or refuse to promote you until you do. The breathing is the important thing.
    The second emphasis is on conflict resolution. "Stop" says you don't want to fight. "Whoa" says you're surprised and reacting to danger. "Hey" says you're trying to interrupt something, in this case violence against you. "Easy" says you want to resolve or avoid this problem.
    Using these words also helps to put yourself in one of four specific frames of mind that can best be used to handle a situation. Each kiai helps evoke that specific elemental attitude, sort of a set of four internal kamae.
    So there are multiple levels of looking at this:
    1. the importance of breathing
    2. what's being said
    3. what's being felt
    I'm sure the rabbit hole goes deeper than that but I don't want to geek out too much on esoteric oriental philosophy. I think we've covered the important bits.

    And I'm sure it's a bit of exaggeration just to drill and reinforce the importance of breathing when you strike.
     
  6. Gary Arthur

    Gary Arthur White Belt

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    If you want to be good at something make a habit of it.

    So saying "Stop it" again and again as a beginner certainly does make a habit of it.

    It also has legal reasons. Imaging goinf to court and having witnesses to you fight tell the judge that you kept saying "Stop it". It suggests that you were acting defensive and not the attacker.

    I believe there are relevant modern Kiai dependent on level. I remember wind used to be something like "Your point of view" But this was an exercise taught way back in 1986 to explain different timing and kiai in the five elements.

    Gary Arthur
     
  7. CanadianCommando

    CanadianCommando White Belt

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    That sounds quite a bit like the shaolin concept of sound/energy/breathing/intent/focus.

    I have a quick question - You only mention earth, water, fire and wind, which is 4 of the 5 elements in the asian systems.

    What about the metal/spirit element? Do you have a corresponding sound, mentality and/or methodology for that?

    Thanks in advance for your response.

    Chris.
     
  8. Chris Parker

    Chris Parker Grandmaster

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    Hey Chris,

    Within the Godai and Gogyo that Hayes popularised, there are two different groupings, the most well-known being Chi (Earth), Sui (Water), Ka (Fire), Fu (Wind), Ku (Void). The other is used within Togakure Ryu Intonjutsu, and has the elements Sui (Water), Moku (Wood), Ka (Fire), Do (Earth), and Kin (Metal). So Metal isn't part of this list, but is part of the other. If you meant Void by "spirit", then that is there, however as Void is nothingness, and is the freedom to employ any of the elemental aspects as needed, I wouldn't expect there to necessarily be a specific "Void" shout. If I was to come up with one, I would focus on the fake aspect of the void concept, and would have it as a question to set-up a pre-emptive strike ("Is that the security guard?" - WALLOP!).
     

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